I had two different experiences with my last two jobs.

Right after graduation, friend pitched me to his Creative Director of BFG. The Creative Director called me, asked if I would be interview the next day, he also asked if I would bring my laptop. After a quick interview, he asked if I was ready to start right then and there. He took me to a cleared area, I set up my laptop and within ten minutes I had my first project. I didn't even know how much I was being paid, it happened that fast.

My next job, was a little different. The Art Director said "Here is your computer, copy the work files to the server, wipe the hard drive, re-install the OS and software. Take a day or two to get set up. See me tomorrow before I go on vacation" A very relaxed introduction.

Which did I prefer? I liked the trial by fire, I got the feeling of trust and being part of a team right away.

Sidenote: Before lunch at BFG, I turned around and noticed everyone was gone. I heard some laughing and cheering, so I made my way around to see what was going on. There was an Art Director sitting at a table holding a Thai Pepper and a bunch of $5 and $1 bills on the table. After a few minutes of bets and smack-talking, he came away with a burning mouth and an empty wallet. Seeing how everyone got along made my frist day a lot easier.

Do not confuse your occupation with your life.

I would never feel bad about leaving because, if the worst came to the worst and people had to be laid off, the company might lay me off without feeling too bad about it. I work for a company, not for a person. I have strong personal relationships with my colleagues and my boss, but my relationship with the company is purely business.

I only go there every day for one reason: to earn money. If I can find a job I would enjoy more for the same money, or a job I would enjoy equally for more money, I'd leave this one immediately. I would leave on good terms, and I would take the chance to thank my employer for the good times I've had there, but I certainly wouldn't feel bad about it.

Do you think anyone you left behind would feel bad about it? Do you miss anyone who's left your workplace?

Do not confuse your occupation with your life.

You know, I created the phrase "it's not personal, it's business" just for guys like you. If I offered you enough money, would you sell your soul to me for eternity? Never mind, I already know the answer.

i've been doing graphic design in different capacities for over 35 years. if there is one thing i've learned over that time is that you have to look out for your own interests (as you define them) because it is a dead certainty that no one else will. it is a very sad fact that this is an extremely cutthroat business.

so, my best advice to you is to not burn bridges (if possible) but stay working toward your own interests and goals. if the people in the 'old' workplace reject you because of these actions, then they really don't much have your happiness in mind and don't care about you. honest.

you don't have to be cutthroat about it, but you have to stay honest to yourself above all else.

When it is time to leave, after working for them for a few years, how do you feel? Unfaithful? Relieved? Do you have the gut feeling of in-your-face betrayal?

Absolutely a vibration between freed and regretful. Somedays more one than the other. It probably lasted for a couple of months. Once the new business took off and everything rolled into place, I was able to look back on the previous experience as an incredible learning opportunity. The experiences in design, business, and most of all human interaction were invaluable. The latter will always be valuable in any situation, however short or long-lived. An opportunity to interact is always valuable. Keeping this in mind helps even the worst confrontations translate as positive events. This all, or course, is coming from an optimist :)

I never felt unfaithful. This is due in part to that fact that I was going off on my own, as opposed to working for the competition.

Do we pick the greenest grass without looking back?

Pick the greenest grass and look backward!

From the Incompelete Manifesto for Growth:

42. Remember. Growth is only possible as a product of history. Without memory, innovation is merely novelty. History gives growth a direction. But a memory is never perfect. Every memory is a degraded or composite image of a previous moment or event. That’s what makes us aware of its quality as a past and not a present. It means that every memory is new, a partial construct different from its source, and, as such, a potential for growth itself.

I like Art's response and especially his closing statement. Honesty must be carried throughout everything one does, and these are times when being true to oneself should flow into being true to one's work—clients, peers, competitors and vendors, among others. Who wants more scandals, hurt feelings, and lies amidst this current morass of corporate wrongdoers?

When I left my first agency job and had to do an exit interview, one question they asked was, "Would you work with us again?" I said no because of the hard feelings I had toward some staff members and the situation itself. A year later, when those people left and the company restructured, they sought me out because I was doing some hard to come by work. I wound up taking the contract for three months, even though I stated that I would, "Never work there again." You never know what will happen. Time is a funny thing.

BTW (Satan, we need to talk about a client I'm having problems with. Come on over to my place in Charlotte, North Carolina—you'll feel right at home in this heat we're having—so we can discuss this.)

I worked for a company that I really enjoyed, CSA Travel Protection. They respected me and I respected them. However, an opportunity came up that I couldn't say no to. I was able to give my them three weeks notice and I worked very hard to finish projects and teach the fellow developers about the CSS files that I created and how to maintain them.

I think this was an appropriate way to leave a job. I have returned as a consultant and continue to visit with my former coworkers for lunch.

I spent many years in the non-profit world and perhaps I will become more jaded the longer I am in the "real" world. But I still believe you should treat those you respect with equal respect.

Now the job before that ... They treated me like dirt when politics became nasty and I left as soon as I finished a big project that I wanted to have under my belt.

I'm working in a fairly convoluted market, at a job that pays ok but doesn't really do the kind of work that I enjoy. Some days I'm just happy to be working, but other days I think that I should be looking harder for something else. I had a job previously (in a different state) that allowed all sorts of creative freedom, but paid very little. I wonder... what are the acceptable reasons to leave a job? Location? Pay? Ambition?

As far as the question bryony asked, I tend to leave bridges unburned. The job I left in Kansas was under the pretense that I would continue to do freelance work for them from Florida, except that the freelance work only trickled in, until it eventually dried up completely. I still talk to my old boss, but it's more of a friendly “how are you” than a “hey, can you do this work for me?”

We live in a different world than our parents did. Few people devote 30-40 years of their life to a company anymore in return for security and a pension. Nowadays, it's not unheard of for someone to change employers 10-20 times throughout their career.

I've always believed that it's your professional responsibility to seek opportunities to advance your career as far as you'd like to go—in-agency or cross-agency. Loyalty doesn't mean you have to be blind. You can conduct yourself with ethics and devote your loyalty to a company, while at the same time looking out for your best interest.

I had a creative director impart some advice on me, that I now share with my employees: it's your responsibility to ask for a raise if you think you deserve one, and it's your responsibility to seek advancement and opportunities for professional growth, whether it's from within the company, or at another agency. Both you and your boss share equal responsibility in your job performance, satisfaction, responsibilities, and compensation.

As an employee, never accept being taken for granted, but on the other hand, never think that you are ever irreplaceable. No one, I mean no one, is irreplaceable.

I will through something else into the mix. What if they gave you an extended maternity leave? they sponsored your immigration paperwork? paid your moving expenses? found your apartment for you...

how does an employers help influence your actions?

I wish I could send "Thank You" cards now to all the slave-driving, low-down bosses who ever fired me. Freed me to make my own path. I used to work in magazines as well as agencies before going freelance, so watching designers run like little hampsters in cages is a pitiful sight. Some just get bigger cages and they think they're, well, celebrity hampsters, maybe.

Take it all in stride is my advice. Become better at what you do best. Surprize yourself. And it's always a good thing to be kind to people under stress...

>What if they gave you an extended maternity leave? they sponsored your immigration paperwork? paid your moving expenses? found your apartment for you...

Bryony, I know it's hard. But I've had employees whom I thought of as family — leave abruptly and take clients with them. But I got over it. Come to think of it, that's exactly what I did to my former boss when I left. She treated me like a favorite son, and didn't speak to me for a while. But she eventually got over it — probably at the same time that she remembered that's how she left her former agency boss.

Employers will do kind things for their employees — but no employer expects unconditional loyalty back in return. That's simply not realistic. Running your own business and managing employees is a huge risk and burden — but one that every employer must assume and accept. It's just the nature of business.

tan's comment speaks to the cutthroat nature of this business. it's built on hustle and we all sell bs. that's what we're about (no matter what you learn in school).

now, just because an employer was kind to you (which i conceed is a rare and wonderful thing) does not mean they were not helping themselves by helping you. you see, THAT is what business is about, not giving it away. "nobody gets rich by giving away their money."

so, i would imagine that your wonderful kind employers should recieve your gratitude and consideration, not you indentured servitude.

if they are such wonderful caring people, i imagine they will understand your move. it's sort of THEIR ultimate test as well as yours.

be kind, but you don't BELONG to them. get it straight.

If you are the one hiring, what do you prepare for your new employee … initial 8 hours? … first week?

Where are the posts answering this question? Tan? Art?

Or from the employee’s perspective, Armin? What did you do the first 8 hours at Pentagram? What about over the course of that 1st week?

Also, love the title Bryony : )

I pictured a revolving door shut-down because of electric or mechanical failure, with an irate character FEELING really pissed about coming up against that! Nothing quite like having to slow down when you’ve got momentum : (

The entire first week of any new hire is simply an adjustment period.

The first day is usually filled with healthcare forms, parking pass, W-2s, and lots of trivial HR paperwork.

I will try to schedule a brainstorm or design crit and invite the newbie to join and observe. I don't expect a bunch of billable hours in that first few days.

I don't really start dumping work on him/her until the second week — cause it's only fair.

And usually, I try to schedule a lunch on that Friday to chat and find our how they're adjusting to their new job and officemates.

Of course, that changes the more senior the hire.

shahla -

well, i haven't had any employees since the mid-80's. and i haven't had a 'job" as an employee with anybody for 15 years or longer. so, i really don't know what is expected of anybody during the first moments of a new job any more. to be human, i guess. what else is there?

I try to schedule a lunch on that Friday to chat and find out how they’re adjusting to their new job and officemates.

Since you were a �senior’ hire yourself recently, describe your first week?

Art

That’s true. And being human there’s bound to be those interactions among colleagues that fall into the �unpleasant’ category. Sometimes it’s not with the employer, or the office environment that one may have a problem but with another employee in the office. No matter how well you manage the relationships, there comes a time you may decide to find a greener pasture just so you no longer need to deal with that one annoying person or specifically the hold that one person has over the person you report to —Can’t he see this person as the #@%* he is? It hurts morale most when �a loyalty’ (deserved or not) obstructs what needs to be done.

Tan

How do you handle those who “don’t get along well with others”?

2 questions for Tan and he’s got to �change hats’ to respond to both : )

Can’t he see this person as the #@%* he is?

�He’ was used for it to be a quick read. I do mean either gender.

>describe your first week

My first two days were short and easy. Fill out forms, customize settings on my computer, had a few meet and greet meetings with my new account and creative team.

Then it all snowballed from there. Next came meetings with key clients, a more thorough review and oversight of key personnel, project status, processes, and trafficking. Executive meetings on company operations and biz development. Then came the inevitable travel.

To be honest, it was all a blur.

But I much prefer jumping into the fire and taking control earlier than later.

>How do you handle those who “don’t get along well with others”

Boy, this is an entire topic for discussion itself.

I've had lengthy discussions on this issue with many business peers who've gone through the same situations. In short — the best resolution is the quickest and hardest. Problem employees rarely ever become better employees. You can tolerate it, you can ignore the problem, you can even send that employee to self-help classes. But in the end, you will have to fire that employee. So it's always best to deal with the situation directly. Talk to the employee and see if the problem is solveable. Then listen to your instincts as a manager. If you know it's not going to work out — then cut the poison limb off immediately.

Of course, you should go through proper HR procedures and record all circumstances and communications. But try to sever that employee as soon as you can.

Being decisive and having the ability to make and execute the hard tasks is what separates a good manager from a weak one. That's why some people just aren't cut out for it.

I know I might sound a bit cruel — but how many of you have had to tolerate working with a bitchy or abrasive coworker because your manager simply refused to acknowledge the problem or do anything about it? That's not acceptable, nor is it good leadership.

I haven't been an employee in living memory, but I was an employer not too many years ago.

I had a prepared "manual" for new people that told them everything from their email id and password to the (long) list of typographic standards we held in the office. So I'd give them a tour of the office, introduce them to everyone, show them to their desk, make sure they got set up with software etc. and then give them the manual to go over. I can't remember what happened after that. Work, i suppose.

I've been pretty attached to each and every one of my former employees. I've never hired anyone i didn't like, and we had a fairly tight, close office, so we became worker "friends" quickly. I've had to fire a couple of people and it was brutally traumatic for me and my partner both (i only remember 2) times. The 2nd time we really botched it, and I still feel shitty about it to this day.

One of my designers left eventually for various reasons, and we "gave" him a couple of clients ... he'd just had so much interaction with them, and they were more comfortable with him. We stayed on good terms and continued to get him to do contract work for us. I still hear from him from time to time today.

Two other former employees, well, they left when I did, but we're still really close friends today. All offices are different I suppose, but really, I spent more time with my colleagues than I did with anyone else. Liking them was always an important part of hiring, though it sometimes made things difficult in the end.

Liking them was always an important part of hiring, though it sometimes made things difficult in the end.

This was something I had expected to hear more from people, not so much the “this is business, we're not here to make friends” attitude that Art and Tan are proposing. Ours is a fairly, for lack of a better word, “relaxed” industry. But maybe that just means that the potential for an employee to take advantage is greater.

greg -

i want to interject and point out that i agree that we have a relaxed and friendly industry (how do we sell our snake oil otherwise?). but i also want to re-inforce that it's still business and this is still america. so, we have a complex interlocking of both attitudes. you can't have it only one way and ignore the rest. however, you actually can have it BOTH ways.

now, THAT's relaxed!

art and mark have it right..

on craigslist a while back, among the many requests for a designer who wanted "the OPPORTUNITY to work with a REAL client, and build their portfolio" (obviously, for free), was something similar to this:

"you are a designer. you paid money to go to school, be trained, buy programs, fonts. you spent hours,weeks,years learning your trade. your skill is your tool. you did not come by this trade by accident. you did not attain this knowledge for free. why then should you be asked to give it away for free? anyone who wants you to work on a job without pay does not take you, nor your industry, not their company very seriously. your skill is worth alot (often much more than money can balance) and it should be treated that way. this is your bread, your bacon, your means to a career. treat it like the precious gift it is."

it was a warning to students, but also a tough-love reminder to all in our industry. this IS a job. our love for design as an entity, an idea should not be tied to the job we are paid to do. working ungodly hours for little pay does not help design, it hurts it. it robs it of its worth.. it cheapens what we do.

love design, worship it, poke at it, stretch it beyond all its previously conceived limits.. dream about it.. write about it.. and explore it to the nth degree. dont, however, let working late into the night on a project you're not getting paid for become the reflection of your love. that project, that client, that billable hour or day.. THAT is your JOB. that isn't your passion. those headaches and surprises are what you're paid for. be paid for them. and if an opportunity comes along that allows you to do this with more inspiration, more money, more room to grow - take it! and don't look back sadly as you go. this is what it's all about. look out for yourself, and yes, if your boss and peers are as concerned and devoted as you are in your impending worry - they will be happy for you as you go. when you take the next step up, you grow the industry, you grow design, you grow. growing is what will fill the history for all our future curious monkeys. your next step will inspire steps we can hardly dream to happen for tomorrow's us.

A year ago, I left a fun but unsustainable (financially) long-term contract position in California to "follow my dream" and work for a non-profit in DC. The office culture was horrible. The person I had replaced had been fired (and he was a co-founder!), the turnover rate was about 40% (in an office of 18 people).

I lasted less than 2 months. I was fired by voicemail. I could have probably fought for the job. Explaining that you can't possible be up to speed as a department manager with this mess of a department in less than 100 days. Instead, I was insulted and just took that as an opportunity to get the hell out of there. Since that time, no one that reported to me is still around.

I eventually went back to the for-profit sector. The work is dull B2B stuff, but the environment is congenially, start-uppy. It makes all the difference in the world.

DC is horrible city to be a designer in, though, if you actually LIKE design. So, I can't imagine staying here for long.

But the work environment cannot be underestimated.

Don't ever take a job where you haven't interviewed in the actual offices you'll work in. When I met the people at "dream non-profit job" instead of their California coworkers, I knew almost immediately that this was NOT going to be good.

i love that story (getting fired by voice mail). i worked at a place once for many many years - it was a true labor of love. but, it was also a teririble work environment with a sort of open warfare between management and workers. in the long term, the management won, the staff exited and the business nosedived (of course), but was still sold for millions. that price was based on the talent of the staff that was no longer there, of course. but, who cares about that? right?

anyway, they once fired someone on staff - and then didn't bother to tell her. she worked for another month and then received no paycheck. when she checked into it, she found out that she had been fired over a month ago! keep in mind this office had only about a 10 people working in it.

another time, a person on staff found out she had been fired while proof-reading a classified advert to be placed describing her job. when it struck her what was happening, she burst into tears and left the biulding crying. she never even came back for her stuff.

so, even though good deserving work usually means mediocre to miserable management combined with low low pay, sometimes you have to carefully think about what you're invovled in and what you risk becoming.

sometimes you have to carefully think about what you're invovled in and what you risk becoming.

Shut the fuck up Art. What are you trying to do, put me out of business?

OK, here's something I shouldn't tell. When I first came up with my business plan, I was offering you cretins what is today's equivalent of a flat payment of 1.8 million US dollars. In exchange all I wanted was the chance to watch you wallow in misery for half your waking life. I thought it was a great deal. You pitiful cretins would still have half a life!

It was a real bitch selling that deal though. So I got one of my more evil consultants to do a study to find a way to make this mother hum. It was too simple for me ever have imagined. The consultant brought it to my attention that all I had to do was break the one time payment into weekly payments. Of course for the real smart asses I have to make the payments every two weeks, big fucking deal, makes no difference to me.

Now, I've rolled the foundation capital into long term annuities that gather me big coins and I have eagerly bidding peons lined up around the block fighting for a better spot.

:: BIG FUCKING EVIL LAUGH ::

This is more of a fizzle out story. I recently took on some work for a salon and asked a friend to come on board. I knew he could bring alot to the project so that is why i wanted him.

Even though he was a student, i paid him a fair wage and hoped that would encourage him as well to give his all on the project.

In the end he fizzled out during the first stage of this project and what I thought would be some brilliant collaboration ended up a dud missile. He stopped communicating and even though i was making an effort and trying to find a way to help him help this project it was to no avail.

Some questions.... What do some of the CD/AD's expect out of their interns, junior designers in regards to how they progress?

Do you have specific benchmarks you measure their progress against?

What kind of attention and critique is given to the junior designer's work productivity?

Is it part of an CD's responsibility to address issues in a timely fashion? Show tips?

What room is there for error considering they are very fresh?

It would interest me alot if some veterans could give a new proprietor some insight into issues after the perfect interview.

art chantry’s comment is:

anyway, they once fired someone on staff - and then didn't bother to tell her. she worked for another month and then received no paycheck. when she checked into it, she found out that she had been fired over a month ago! keep in mind this office had only about a 10 people working in it.

Please tell me she sued, or at least fought kicking and screaming for her money.

Being fired is sometimes a liberating experience. It frees you from obsessive submissiveness. Sometimes, when you get escorted out of the building by security goons, with cowering employees to afraid to say goodbye, it sharpens the mind to accept their failure to be decent and human about standards of severence. Magazines are notorious about decapitating whole staffs on a whim. As Holly Golightly from "Breakfast at Tiffany's" once said: It's all rats and super-rats...

Better to work for yourself.

Satan, you're cute. where can I find your action figure?

Josh: your story and questions are interesting and the answers are really not that easy as the size of a studio or agency will vary widely in its approach to interns and juniors.

Quite frequently I hire new grads for contract positions - many of which I've developed more extended relationships with for contract work - and within that context expect to be both boss and mentor; knowing that up to 50% of my time with a new grad can be in a mentoring role that can range from filling in gaps in application knowledge to more design oriented issues. While I can't speak for others, I can tell you steps that I take.

First and foremost is introducing the design process and providing a detailed design brief accompanied by a kick-off. Then reviewing files and letting the junior spend a day digesting that. Following that I, and based on experience, anticipate certain weaknesses with the juniors skills and ask questions around knowledge potential gaps to see if any tips relevant to the immediate project are needed before the junior starts working. As the project progresses I always expect to uncover more areas where tips and instruction are needed.

Is that my responsibility? Yes, as I've decided to hire someone at the intern or junior level to give them a taste of the business, when I could have hired an experienced designer at a higher rate who would complete the assignment up to 2/3 faster. I do expect a certain competency in design fundamentals.

Room for error, which boils down to time and billable hours, is given up to the point of where it does not affect two things: budget and deadlines. Satan can chime in here on budgets.

I'm sure many of us could go on quite a bit on this subject but that seems like a whole new thread.

So back to Bryony's original questions. When is it time leave?

Lot's of reason's and some are universal and some job specific - ugly politics, the agency has lost client base and it's time to protect your ass, when you feel like you can't grow anymore, when you wake up and dread going in, dull projects and a forecast for more dull projects.

Say you have been there a few months (3-6) and a new opportunity comes up and you decide to leave. Do you feel bad?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Depends on the emotional life of the position being left. More often than not if a better opprtunity comes up the money aspect is only one component and the work environment, politics, or some aspect says it's time to go.

Largely I'll agree with Art - it's a cutthroat industry and despite our fantasies of being Fine Artists, money is the bottom line at the end of the day. I will add that satisfaction is a key ingredient in the equation when deciding to stay or leave.

If you're an employee you'll be dropped as soon as you're not an asset to your studio/agency/design team. The reverse is true: as soon as your job is no longer an assset to you other than a paycheck, leave if you like. Personally, I burn bridges only when they should be burned, otherwise remain open to former employers to the extent they deserve.

matt-in-brooklyn -

here's a funny story....

no, she didn't sue them. but about a year or two later she became something like the number 300 employee at amazon.com and retired a few years later with a million.

this is the same woman who was fired and not told about it. joke's on them.

true story.

Gregor: I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions and deliver a short snapshot of how you deal with young designers.

Considering the fact that these are the next generation of problems solvers in our field, your responses find me brimming with optimism, as i would like to feel more, but don't have the occasion often.

I posed these questions because i'm gathering information to develop a student design resource, initially delivered via the web.

The goal is to be a source of inspiration and education for aspiring designers. Giving students a voice in their own education and cooperating with educators and professionals to provide the opportunity to gain various skill sets in an environment that sidesteps vague rhetoric for "optimistic" results. It exists for students, but with any hope its contents would benefit educators, professionals and students alike to better the profession of design.

That my spiel. You or any readers are encouraged to contribute observations, approaches or pose questions if the mood strikes you.

Great comments, but really, all over this site people are writing "a lot" as one word. please, it is two!

Great comments, but really, all over this site people are writing "a lot" as one word. please, it is two!

Great comments, but really, all over this site people are writing "a lot" as one word. please, it is two!

Great comments, but really, all over this site people are writing "a lot" as one word. please, it is two!