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Type Casting

We all have different methods of choosing type for a project. Myself, I go by “feel”—unscientific I know. But when I’m choosing body copy, I make some educated guesses as to choice, then run out some paragraphs in different faces to check it out, see how it feels. I always start with what I already own, but I really run into problems when I can’t get the right feel and I need to start looking at buying something. I just can’t tell anything (OK, very little) from the character set or a line of type.

For headlines and logos it’s much easier, but for text, there have been many times I’ve bought something only to discover it still wasn’t right. Thankfully, I have a friend, Brian, who helps me out. His suggestions are usually right on. I also often run my final choices by him because I worry that my intuitive type sense will lead me astray. I have always imagined a host of designers picking up the final piece and gasping in incredulity at my choice of type. “What?? Who designed this?!” followed by rolled eyes and a dismissive toss. OK! So I’m insecure! These days I don’t even bother with the imaginary host, I just imagine Mark Kingsley.

The number of weights required, whether the italics are properly associated (if I can’t hit Command-I and get italic I’m not going to use it for something where I need a lot of italic in the text), how it tracks, what it will be printed on, whether it will be reversed, comparitive axes and weights of paired faces … so many things to think about!

So how do you choose type? Do you, like me, start with what you have, or do you look to buy exactly the right face? Do you go by historical or regional origin? Would you eschew a big-city face like Gotham for a small-town paper? If it’s a French cookbook, must you use a French face?

And here’s a hard one, how do you know which Garamond, Baskerville or Bodoni to use? Is your Bodoni good enough, or should you buy the 6, 12, and 72 set of ITC Bodoni?

And then there’s the less rational reasons. Have you ever been swayed by the name of the typeface? Used Perpetua for a memorium? Used Shaker for a book about the prairies or Sauna for a spa?

Have you ever chosen type for reasons of revenge?

Have you ever used something because you just bought it and you wanted to use it (fess up)? Like maybe that typeface you bought for something else and it didn’t work out. Doesn’t it kindof nag at you … “I’ve got to get some use out of this damned typeface!”

How about exclusivity? Do you avoid system fonts? Do you seek out the smaller, lesser known foundries … do you spring the big bucks for Enschedé faces, because really, at that price how many other people will have it?

And finally do you lust after certain typefaces, and if so why? What makes you want to own something you don’t yet need? Does it really look useful, or does it just happen to be Emigre’s latest face and you want to get to it before anyone else?

C’mon now, be honest. Next week none of us will really remember your true type confessions. Promise.

Maintained through our ADV @ UnderConsideration Program
ENTRY DETAILS
ARCHIVE ID 2050 FILED UNDER Typography
PUBLISHED ON Aug.18.2004 BY marian bantjes
WITH COMMENTS
Comments
Patrick C’s comment is:

I use what I've got for the most part. I have a lot to learn (I feel) and the best way to learn type is to work with a few faces on a regular basis. Having a limited selection also cuts down on indecision.

But, like you, if I feel a project demands a style of typeface I don't have I look for it and buy it for the project.

I'll fess up to seeking a lot of help from The Elements of Typographic Style and Dean Allen's Twenty Faces on Textism.

And I do compare printed samples to make my decisions on body copy.

On Aug.18.2004 at 11:34 AM
Joseph’s comment is:

Have you ever used something because you just bought it and you wanted to use it (fess up)?

You betcha! I WILL find a way to work it into another project so i can recoupe the expense.

How about exclusivity? Do you avoid system fonts?

For logos i usually check the system fonts to see if they are the basics of what I looking for. If i have no luck, i start developing a unique typeface.

For body copy, I try my darnedest to use a system until i can no longer. It usually never happens that the typical typefaces I have are unusable.

On Aug.18.2004 at 12:02 PM
Steve Mock’s comment is:

I usually use Marian's 'Brian' method. That is to say; asking for help from someone who knows a lot more than me.

Granted, I don't usually have the occasion to set a lot of body copy and it's a big joke around the studio that I only need two fonts: serif and sans serif.

On Aug.18.2004 at 12:15 PM
Sarah B.’s comment is:

I do "the marian" as well. :)

If I can't do it that way - - I will, "cheat" and go find a similar type of project, in my past, or someone else's, and get a feel about how others tackled the same situation.

I also constantly go to my Veer catalogs and browse.. and mark the ones I like and would like to use and keep them in mind.

I just lust type in general. There are some on my "I will never use" list, but I think there are uses for most all. I admire the new, and cherish the old. I just think type can be so gorgeous!

Have you ever been swayed by the name of the typeface?

I can't recall that I have!!

On Aug.18.2004 at 12:54 PM
Andrew Twigg’s comment is:

If I don't know which fonts I want to try using for a project by the time I need to get to work, I'll usually find myself thumbing through a giant type specimen book. This doesn't often lead me into uncharted territory, I admit. However, most of my clients aren't in need of the latest and greatest typeface - it just wouldn't be appropriate.

I do have a few old faithful typefaces - some of which I happen to really really like - that will be called upon if absolutely nothing else is working. It's very rare that I'll have to go find something new.

I have to say that I don't often consider the historical context of a typeface... at least not for the typical 'business' project. I'm more interested in what the 'layperson' thinks of it. After all, they're the ones who have to "get it."

On Aug.18.2004 at 01:00 PM
Armin’s comment is:

As far as objective and logistical reasons… I start with what I have, mostly because testing typefaces that I don't have is, like, hard — specially for body copy, if it's a logo most online type-testers work great. So unless I really can't find anything at all or I have a desire (it's rarely a need) to use something new I'll go ahead and buy a new type family. But that's rare.

More subjective reasons… if I have used a typeface in the past that works well for me, I'll use it again and again. For some reason I come back a lot to Bodoni (an Adobe Bodoni) for small invitations or booklets, and every time I get the printed piece it's like "why do I keep coming to Bodoni, I don't really like it". But it works for the occasion so I roll with it. There is also a lot of "feel", which unscientific as it is, I actually think is the best way to select typefaces. If it feels right, I use it.

> Have you ever chosen type for reasons of revenge?

We just did a small pro-bono invite and I used Gill Sans Bold (paired with another protagonist script). I needed a sans to set some information so I figured I might as well use Gill Sans since we have been talking about it.

> Do you avoid system fonts?

Yes, very much. The only system font I have ever used is Georgia. And I might give Hoefler Text a try sometime, but other than that, no, ew. Of course, for web sites (as in HTML text) there is no option so it's either Georgia or Verdana.

> Have you ever used something because you just bought it and you wanted to use it (fess up)?

We bought FontFont's Avance a couple years ago, I used it for a comp for a web site, it looked absolutely bitching but the client didn't go for it. Every time I scroll by it in Suitcase I feel like I need to use it, but haven't found an appropriate use for it. One day…

Oh, and Volgare by Stephen Farrell, I have really gotten a lot of mileage out of that.

> And finally do you lust after certain typefaces, and if so why?

Oh, totally. I almost always want to buy the latest Emigre fonts (at least Tribute, Dalliance and Los Feliz), I know I will rarely use them so I hold off on the urge. But, yeah, lots of lust.

On Aug.18.2004 at 01:09 PM
Michael H.’s comment is:

Here's where working in-house can be beneficial. We have one type family and four of it's weights that we use. That's it. And all are defined for certain use (headline, body copy, etc.).

However, this can also be viewed as having a negative impact. Not being able to select fonts is like cutting off a piece of my creative mind. Or like not exercising: if I don't use it, it becomes weaker. Lately I have been actively persuing freelance jobs in my free time for friends of mine. It has been fun and is great exercise for my creative side.

To answer Marian's post, yes I do get tempted by the font name itself, but I do not rely on it for final font selection. History of the font (if there is any), readability, and projected personality (not in that order) are the criteria that I use. If I am unsure of what I am creating, I'll ask for other input. But since I do this at home, my wife (non-designer) is usually the first one I ask for an opinion. If I am still at an impass, I will send out (email or IM) to my designer friends that are online for solicitation of opinion. If I have time, I also have a few (designer) friends at work (that I trust and respect) that I'll ask as well.

But the one formula that I've found to work really well is time. If I have the time, I'll create and then walk away for a day or so. Then come back fresh and see if my font selection invokes the reaction I was shooting for in the first place. But realistically, this rarely happens as I hardly ever have the luxury of such time.

On Aug.18.2004 at 01:27 PM
Hrant’s comment is:

> I just can’t tell anything (OK, very little)

> from the character set or a line of type.

I guess doing so requires a grasp of the "micro" stuff, like watching for proper vertical proportions (eg: descenders shorter than ascenders), errant glyphs (like a "g" that's too much), etc.* These days with so many fonts out there, a screening procedure can save a lot of time and money - at least once you decide to go beyond your installed library - or many even then, since some people have so many fonts!

* I wonder, would it be useful to a graphic designer to have a list of such things to check for before "committing"?

One thing that can only really be done at the "macro" level though is a decent evaluation of spacing - which is very important.

hhp

On Aug.18.2004 at 01:27 PM
david e.’s comment is:

True type confessions — does that include confessing to using fonts we haven't actually bought? Not that I've ever done that. heh.

Have you ever been swayed by the name of the typeface?

I don't think I've ever been influenced by the name of a typeface, but I've seen examples of it. My favorite is the Cooper Tires logo — though I suppose it could be a coincidence.

http://www.coopertire.com

how do you know which Garamond, Baskerville or Bodoni to use?

I've been lucky enough to work under some good creative directors when I was starting out who've influenced my own preferences, but I've still found myself trying to decide which version of Garamond might work best for a particular project (although I'd always avoid Berthold Garamond, which barely resembles any other Garamond I've seen). With Bodoni I'd probably stick with the ITC version. I don't like the very narrow thin strokes of Bauer Bodoni, even if it is supposed to be a more authentic version. For Baskerville, always Monotype over Berthold, which seems too bold. For logos, it makes sense to try everything, in order to see which letterforms work best with the words.

If I were going to purchase any new typefaces, I'd be very tempted buy any of those Enshedé faces, especially Ruse — very beautiful! (though I didn't look to see what they cost) Not only does the idea of using something unique appeal to me, but I like the idea of supporting a small company that’s doing great work, even if the cost is a bit higher.

On Aug.18.2004 at 01:28 PM
marian’s comment is:

* I wonder, would it be useful to a graphic designer to have a list of such things to check for before "committing"?

Yes!

I'd be very tempted buy any of those Enshedé faces, especially Ruse — very beautiful! (though I didn't look to see what they cost) Not only does the idea of using something unique appeal to me, but I like the idea of supporting a small company that’s doing great work, even if the cost is a bit higher.

I've been lusting after some of these faces for a while (I have a sample of Collis hanging on my wall). With text faces I figure I'll find a use for it eventually. But uh, yeah, those prices are high ... and I don't actually know why. To be honest I assume that they are "quality" typefaces ... probably have a lot of attention to detail, kerning and such. But I wonder, am I just assuming that, the way I assume a Mercedes is a quality car?

And does it matter?

Mark Kingsley says there's no such thing as a bad typeface. But is there such a thing as a really good one?

On Aug.18.2004 at 01:43 PM
Armin’s comment is:

> Have you ever been swayed by the name of the typeface?

There is this…

There is also some company that does something and it is called Futura and, of course, they use Futura Bold.

On Aug.18.2004 at 01:51 PM
krf’s comment is:

Yes, Hrant, I'd love to see a "checklist" or some kind of general use chart. For something that's so important and can be a "make it or break it" for a project, I haven't seen any 'great' tools for fonts that can be used to compare all the intricacies that font selection entails.

I currently use Font Lister and Adobe Type Manager Deluxe for font comparisons and management.

On Aug.18.2004 at 01:52 PM
marian’s comment is:

And speaking of lusting after typefaces, yeah, I do it. In some cases they become ... no longer tools but objects. Or a kind of art.

About a year ago I went on a spending spree over at Storm. His fonts are not expensive, so it was a happy spree. I bought a bunch of stuff that I may never use. And yes, some of it I have used semi-gratuitously, just for the sake of using it. But I had to have them and I'm still glad I have them. And I like the thought that one day I'll get a project and think "Aha! Cobra. At last, its time has come."

I've been thinking of collecting Blackletters. I love them! I have no use for them! But I just have this idea it would be really, really cool to have this huge collection of blackletters. Yeah. I know. Nuts.

On Aug.18.2004 at 01:52 PM
marian’s comment is:

Also, I have been swayed by the name of a typeface. I can't think of the exact instance, but I know it's happened more than once. And it makes a great sell to the client. They love it when the name evokes something about their business.

Hell, that's probably a good tactic ... you could lie! Like how're they going to know? Instead of telling them it's Akzidenz Grotesk (which is sometimes a no-sell, right there) you could say, "I chose the typeface 'Power' to evoke the strength in your tractors ..."

heh heh heh.

On Aug.18.2004 at 02:02 PM
graef’s comment is:

I am not a snip - however:

SpeakUp wrote in Typecasting, 'And then there’s the less rational reasons.'

Is anyone really expected to overlook your grammar in which to notice a typeface?

After you've surfed the type shops pls have a look at Strunk & White's 'Elements of Style' or perhaps any sixth grade grammar textbook.

On Aug.18.2004 at 02:04 PM
Hrant’s comment is:

> there's no such thing as a bad typeface.

I get riled whenever I hear that. Of course there are bad fonts and good fonts. No two people might agree on which are bad and which are good, but the value judgement is still there. It's like saying there's no such thing as a bad sandwich. You might find one person on the planet who actually likes olive-and-chocolate-syrup sandwiches, but to everybody else it's a BAD SANDWICH.

This is not the same thing as saying that a typeface can be totally useless. For example, if you happen to want a grot with spacing so tight as to make it unreadable, you might use Helvetica. It can happen. But that ocurrence doesn't make Helvetica a good design on its own.

Thinking that there can be no bad typefaces makes the efforts of type designers moot.

hhp

On Aug.18.2004 at 02:05 PM
Diane Witman’s comment is:

This is truly sad or maybe peculiar but I have fallen absolutely in love with the Whitman font family...it may not be spelled the same as my name, but it's soooo close! I love it!

armin, I noticed that you used it for the sheepies how do you feel it worked for you?

marian, I visited the Storm Type Foundry and I agree! Cobra is great and I adore John Baskerville. I think I found me a new type foundry. Thanks!

On Aug.18.2004 at 02:06 PM
marian’s comment is:

Is anyone really expected to overlook your grammar in which to notice a typeface?

I hope that sentence is intentionally obscurely constructed.

But NO! do not overlook my grammar! And thanks for pointing it out. You are correct: that should read

"and then there are the less rational reasons." I will leave it as is so that your comment and this make sense.

However,

when choosing, or even noticing a typeface I do think you can and should overlook my—or anyone else's—grammar.

On Aug.18.2004 at 02:14 PM
marian’s comment is:

Thinking that there can be no bad typefaces makes the efforts of type designers moot.

Oops. I knew I shouldn't have brought it up. Yeah, we already duked it out over here in the Saab or Dodgeball thread.

And once again for the record, hrant, I agree with you.

On Aug.18.2004 at 02:19 PM
Patrick C’s comment is:

I don't which is more expensive: Enshedé or the Dutch Type Library. The DTL has an absolutely terrible site, but do sell some very nice fonts. There is also the Linotype platimun library. I gasped when I saw how much Avenir Next was. I'm not suggesting they're over-priced, just that they are beyond my budget.

Marian, I understand your blackletter fixation. I've been tempted too, but have yet to give in.

I will admit to buying display faces just because I like them and because the $49 or so doesn't seem too much to part with. Some day I'll make use of them—at least that's what I promise myself when I type in the Visa number.

On Aug.18.2004 at 02:22 PM
marian’s comment is:

This is truly sad or maybe peculiar

Not at all. I was horrified to discover recently that my boyfriend, Dante, does not own Dante. How could he not? How can he live without it?

Have you ever bought anyone a font for a present?

My birthday is in March. Remember: blackletters

On Aug.18.2004 at 02:27 PM
Michael H.’s comment is:

> Instead of telling them it's Akzidenz Grotesk (which is sometimes a no-sell, right there)...

Marian, how'd you a know? When our identity was being developed, the first question in my mind was "How did this font get approved with a name like that??

> Thinking that there can be no bad typefaces makes the efforts of type designers moot.

Isn't this being a bit short-sighted Hrant? Here, you said so yourself in your example: "You might find one person on the planet who actually likes olive-and-chocolate-syrup sandwiches, but to everybody else it's a BAD SANDWICH."

So if there is one person who likes the sandwhich, doesn't that make it a good sandwhich after all? If there's a typeface out there that breaks all the typography rules, is horribly illegible, and therefor barely represents any of the letters in the alphabet, yet is a perfect fit for conveying the messege of a given piece, doesn't that then justify its existence and make it a good font?

On Aug.18.2004 at 02:31 PM
Hrant’s comment is:

Michael, that's assuming I believe only good things should exist. Besides the fact that I'm not omniscient (hence my idea of what's good isn't necessarily True, assuming Truth even exists), I happen to feel that nothing can exist without its opposite.

hhp

On Aug.18.2004 at 02:43 PM
Armin’s comment is:

> armin, I noticed that you used it for the sheepies how do you feel it worked for you?

It is fantastic! I don't think I had to adjust more than five kerning pairs at larger sizes. It sets beautifully. I, too, have a mad, mad crush on Whitman. And I have bugged Kent Lew to get working on the extended family. The italic 'k" alone is worth the price.

On Aug.18.2004 at 02:57 PM
Patrick F’s comment is:

> Have you ever been swayed by the name of the typeface?

Guilty. When designing the 50th Birthday/fundraiser brunch invite for Russ Feingold (D-WI)...

I used Senator.

On Aug.18.2004 at 03:02 PM
Rob’s comment is:

Here's where working in-house can be beneficial. We have one type family and four of it's weights that we use. That's it. And all are defined for certain use (headline, body copy, etc.).

Beneficial is a questionable word. I also work in-house and find the use of one type face for everything to be contrary to my own design philosophy, particularly when that one face is a sans serif.

As for my own projects, I rarely, if ever, use system fonts. Though I have recently used the non-system version of Hoefler Text because it really worked for this project and I didn't want to use Bodoni, which just didn't look right. Like others I have my classic stand-bys (never used at work, of course, unless as a "graphic element"). And my choices are usually made by picking a couple, throwing them into a rough layout and seeing if they feel right for the project. So, far, that strategy has worked for me with my freelance clients. And of course, there are always my friends to share with too, and get their valued opinions.

On Aug.18.2004 at 03:07 PM
Kevin Lo’s comment is:

I just recently bought Barnbrook's Melancholia. I "lusted" after it for a while and even designed with it (using screen captures, ha!) before deciding to shell out. I wanted it solely for the logo of the zine I'm starting, and I knew that I would probably never get another chance to use it in any commercial project. Now, however I'm thinking of actually setting copy with it, as scary as that sounds, just to make it "worth" it. (of course, I think it's worth it anyways, but to stretch that "worth" would be great). Beyond that I have this strange desire to just shock my audience with an inappropriate typeface, maybe it will get them thinking.....

Also, the name of the face definitely (and irrationally) motivated me to part with my money (as it spoke to me at the time). Also, I felt good supporting Barnbrook in all his wacky endeavours.

Plus the thank you email (though automated) was great:

The leader of our cult would personally

like to extend his gratitude to you:

+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

+ T + H + A + N + K + + + Y + O + U +

+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_

D E A R D I S C I P L E + + + + + +

+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_

For ordering fonts from Virus. We understand that you have a choice whether or not to buy our products, so we humbly appreciate your custom. May peace be upon you.

Please find your order attached to this e-mail. May it bring you success in this and the next life.

On Aug.18.2004 at 03:11 PM
Sarah B.’s comment is:

And I have bugged Kent Lew to get working on the extended family. The italic 'k" alone is worth the price.

THAT would be wonderful... keep asking!! :)

On Aug.18.2004 at 03:11 PM
Michael H.’s comment is:

> Beneficial is a questionable word.

Rob, I should have elaborated on my statement. When I said "beneficial," I meant it in the sense of avoiding the trials and tribulations of font selections, even if I do love going through it.

> I also work in-house and find the use of one type face for everything to be contrary to my own design philosophy, particularly when that one face is a sans serif.

Here, I couldn't agree with you more except in the use of corporate identity collateral.

Actually...

Thinking about it, I should really say that a consistent use of type faces (of no more than three) is important to keeping the integrity of a corporate identiy. Just my two cents.

On Aug.18.2004 at 03:35 PM
Michael H.’s comment is:

The Yin can not exist without the Yang, Hrant? Okay, I see your point. However I am forever the optimist and believe that any font deemed as a "badly designed font" can find a home in the appropriate layout or identity, even if it's not for 100 years after it's birth.

But you're right, if Good exists then so does Evil. If good type faces exist, surely there must be bad ones. Such a delimma I am now in...

Getting back on topic, my font selection routine begins with understanding the personality of the collateral or logo, having a (sometimes vague) visual, and then perusing my font management program of choice for the appropriate looking font. It's at that point that I may find another font that has a different style but works much better.

On Aug.18.2004 at 04:01 PM
Michael H.’s comment is:

Okay, last post and then I'm done, promise.

Since we're tossing out foundry's websites, I thought I'd mention Chank, for those who are not already familiar with his work.

On Aug.18.2004 at 04:08 PM
Dirk Brandts’s comment is:

I browse fonts almost every day and keep a mental catalogue of those which interest me, so when a new job comes up I usually have three or four choices in mind. I pay attention to what the major designers are doing, but I also have some contrarian idiosyncrasies of my own. I think it's a good mix.

I make a couple of big purchases a year, and spend around $1k annually on fonts. I picked up this bad habit about 15 years ago when I worked for a typographer. My wife knew about this when she married me.

I bought John Downer's Iowan Old Style when I went to TypeCon in SF, to use on a coffee-table history book. I love it on its own merits and expect it to do a sincere and unassuming job without calling attention to itself and getting in the way, but I was probably also influenced by the fact that my Dad is himself an actual old style Iowan!

On Aug.18.2004 at 04:21 PM
Sonyl’s comment is:

<badtypejoke>

I set all my text in Comic Sans for that youthful, relaxed look.

</badtypejoke>

On Aug.18.2004 at 04:31 PM
marian’s comment is:

Speaking of Bad Type ...

On Aug.18.2004 at 04:47 PM
Sonyl’s comment is:

And PS, I hate you all – I have never really coveted typefaces, since they're usually outside the price range of a poor starving college student. Now, however, I'm done with school and the posts about Emigre's faces made me remember I haven't looked at their stuff in a while ... and Mrs Eaves has some really hot ligatures... Food or font? Food or font?

I think we may need to start a support group.

On Aug.18.2004 at 04:49 PM
jenny’s comment is:

I've had big boughts of font lust since I was a teenager. Emigre fonts, often. I almost never need them.

And Armin (by way of Diane's question) has now convinced me to give in to my recent Whitman lust and buy it...

I'm sure I'll thank you later, Armin.

Have you ever bought anyone a font for a present?

Actually... I had a friend in high school who inspired all my original font lust - we used to look at font catalogs. Several of us got together and bought him the font he wanted for his birthday. It was from Adobe, and it seemed like a godawful lot of money at the time. That was 10 years ago, and I'm certain he still has it.

Instead of telling them it's Akzidenz Grotesk ... you could say, "I chose the typeface 'Power' to evoke the strength in your tractors ..."

tee hee - great idea!

But one caveat - I did a logo job for a small company a while back, and I ended up getting a call about a month after the job ended. Seemed that the president of the company decided the font I used for the body on their letterhead and business cards was much better than any of the system fonts they had, and that he had to have it. And they actually went ahead and bought it, at least for him.

Admittedly, that's only happened once...

On Aug.18.2004 at 07:41 PM
Patrick’s comment is:

I've always been a bit of a font junkie. I've bought fonts for projects I am not getting paid for. (And then there's the time when Mrs Eaves came out, I so wanted to buy it for my wedding invite, but was poor. Now every time I pull the invite out, I wish it wasn't in Garamond.) I regularly buy fonts for comps (though I do that less now that online typesetters let me set headlines good enough to put in a comp). And I buy for no project whatsoever, just to have it. One thing I like about being freelance/running my own business is that I don't need to go justify to my boss why I should buy a font. I just expense it wherever possible.

Anyway, one thing I do that helps is keep a notepad page on my computer with a list of fonts I like - with a brief description, what i think it would be good for, and the cost.

On Aug.18.2004 at 09:28 PM
ian’s comment is:

i get tricked by typeface names all the damn time. i'll see a name and think, that is exactly what i need. only to discover the typeface has no visual relation to the name. (all examples elude me at this time of course)

for body i always try and stick to the tried and true traditional faces, and faces which have the whole fam-damily. that way i can get different textures fron the same type. i like typefaces with ligatures to use in body copy as well. garamond 3 and interstate have become the standards for our own identity, and i have always like garamond, and tend to go to it first.

i also agree that headlines are the easy part.

i do think it is really cool when there is a tie between the typeface and the content, (french face for a french cookbook), but it has to work beyond that as well. because let's face it, no one but us is going to see that connection, and that on our best days. things like that are like the designer's little secret, and i really enjoy when my work has secrets in it for me.

i lust after futura...ahhh, futura ( i know i'm so wierd, no one i work with gets it at all) futura did replaced my lust for avante garde though, and i think that's a move in a positive direction, no? ooohh, and hoefler's requiem, sweet requiem. (i lust for the alt 'y' - so sexy...but my greatest lust of all is garamond in lead. oh damn...i need a second. okay, garamond letterpressed has to be the sexiest type ever. typelust!

damn - font as a present, i better start working on my christmas list now! that's almost better than getting all my magazine subscriptions renewed!

we just had a client want to buy all the fonts used in their collateral mateials so they could use them internally and on thier letters etc. the catch is will they use them correctly (i'm still waiting for my next business letter from them to be in belizio bold or lamar pen)

sorry, i'm totally tired and scattered at this point, time to get that job going that's due tomorrow morning, shit i mean this morning. thanks to all for the great foundry links and list of fonts to check out! great topic marian!

On Aug.19.2004 at 02:03 AM
facelikedip’s comment is:

Have you ever chosen type for reasons of revenge?

One day at work I was feeling slightly more disgruntled than usual, so I set a poster in Comic Sans, with a border that was skewed ever so slightly, and an image stolen directly from page one of a Google image search, blown up to distortion central. I also randomly capitalized words and incorporated an "emoticon" into the text. That lunch time as I wolfed down my olive-and-chocolate-syrup hoagie I silently congratulated myself on my subversive antics. It backfired on me when everyone told me how much they liked the poster, and how much "fun" it was. What can I say? For my sins, I live in Indiana. Late that night I sat on the deck for a while, drinking some beers and smoking some much-needed Marlboro Ultra Lights, and thought about The Draft.

Have you ever been swayed by the name of the typeface?

All of Jon Barnbrook's fonts have very seductive names, plus the descriptions are unsurpassed, e.g. "Drone: for text without content, available in cut number 666 or 90210" or even "Tomahawk: Virus has drawn a full font from the lettering on the side of the Tomahawk Cruise Missile... often the last thing that many people will read."

There are also a good many gems as one browses the catalog at Storm Type Foundry, e.g. "Modell: It is quite illegible, therefore I would recommend combining it with some normal type face." As a bonus they often provide a flippant little history of the font in question.

Marian, I truly hope you get a chance to use Cobra some day; I was just looking at it the other day and trying desperately to imagine a project that would justify it. Can you imagine any feasible situations? Perhaps you should use it in your Speak Up Poster Competition poster? Although I bet you are already working on something even more stunning than that page in DETAILS magazine. A copy of it is hanging in my cubicle for inspiration...

PS Mr. Lo, just discovered your site about a week ago, and I have spent many a happy hour there since.

On Aug.19.2004 at 02:15 AM
Michael B.’s comment is:

Also, I have been swayed by the name of a typeface. I can't think of the exact instance, but I know it's happened more than once. And it makes a great sell to the client. They love it when the name evokes something about their business.

Hell, that's probably a good tactic ... you could lie!

I think I've told this story here before, but it's my favorite. Years ago, when I was working for Massimo Vignelli, we had a client who objected to a proposed design because, among other things, "it didn't look French enough." (His business involved importing French antiques.)

We did a redesign and changed the typeface to Empire. When we were presenting it, the client said, "I really like that new typeface. What's it called?"

Massimo answered "Ahm-PEER." I was about to correct him when I realized he was pronouncing Empire as if it was a French word.

So, Marian, sometimes you don't have to lie: you just have to correct your pronunciation.

On Aug.19.2004 at 07:20 AM
marian’s comment is:

Marian, I truly hope you get a chance to use Cobra some day;

I'm getting so desperate to use it, it's quite likely I'll think up a project specifically for the purpose.

something even more stunning than that page in DETAILS magazine. A copy of it is hanging in my cubicle for inspiration...

Wow. You're really paying attention! Thanks—I'm honoured.

On Aug.19.2004 at 09:01 AM
Jerry’s comment is:

I start with what I have. Online font testers are good, but not great. I usually can't tell much from them, other than for display work, like Armin mentioned before. Maybe in the future, as font technology advances, foundries will be able to embed an expiration date, such as they do with software demos. That would be fabulous!

I don't really have a favorite sans, but for serifs,

I have an ongoing obsession since 2000…

On Aug.19.2004 at 02:45 PM
Pesky Illustrator’s comment is:

My font confession:

Bless me father, it's been, well, it's been years since I've been to confession. I have to admit that I've been using pirated fonts. I know, I know: It's BAD. But when that lightning bolt hit my computer (I swear) and fried my hard drive like an unrepentant Catholic, I had no choice but to go out and buy a new computer. I figured it was a heavenly message. (Yeah, a G5, wow...) Anyway, all my good fonts (mostly bought and downloaded free, no thefts) went down with the ship, so to speak. And I couldn't live on just Monaco, Times Roman and Helvetica. It was hurting my eyes. So I asked my designer friends to send me some fonts. I didn't realize that they'd all send me hundreds. It was like I was loaded with every bizarre font there almost ever was in the universe. I was drunk with fonts now and I drank everyday. Now, father, I'm drinking all the time. Big messy blood-dripping-off-letterforms drinking binges. I know I'm addicted. Serifs, san serifs: it doesn't matter. I'm like a Russian and his vodka. I'm never going to be sober AGAIN! Say, padre, can ya lend me a dollar? I know a sweet serif I need real bad...

On Aug.19.2004 at 07:45 PM
Jason T’s comment is:

As an undergraduate studying design, our professor allowed two typefaces: Times and Helvetica. "There's just too many garbage fonts out there. This is all you need; one serif and one sans serif. And besides, these two fonts are loaded on all of our workstations in the lab."

Moving out of the early 90s, our technology fee at school afforded us a suite of ATM for all machines. Now, we could bring our own fonts in, install them from a little ZIP disk (remember those), and go to town. Still, he insisted on maintaining a sense of order. "It's Univers. It's the universe. Get it class?! This font is so superior to other sans serifs, that you don't need anything else. It's far superior to Helvetica in its breadth." Beyond Univers, we could use any other serif face in combination, so long as it was Times or Garamond.

Fast forward to 2000... during a lunch meeting with a visiting lecturer from the Atlantic coast, I had the pleasure of chatting it up with the old boys network. Waxing poetic about everything from color theory to technology to who's passed into the design afterlife, type choices came up. After hearing the Univers/Universe speech from my professor, the visitor exclaimed, "No, no. Now it's Meta. Meta I tell you. It's bigger than the universe. It's where the universe sits. All the kids are using Meta these days." All I could do was laugh, and think to myself It's about time I try using something different. I graduated from that place three years ago. Move on, Jason. I went home that night, downloaded Meta, and used it on every single project I had going for the last three months of 2000. Rolling into 2001, my design sensibilities pushed me towards a range of sans serif faces: Eurostile, Futura, and even Franklin Gothic. In retrospect, these seem like such guilty pleasures for the first part of the 21st Century. Call it an homage to Kubrick.

On Aug.20.2004 at 01:59 AM
Kevin Lo’s comment is:

PS Mr. Lo, just discovered your site about a week ago, and I have spent many a happy hour there since.

Thanks! happy hours are what it's all about.

On Aug.20.2004 at 08:13 AM
heather’s comment is:

-I had a professor that lived on Clarendon street, and set his address on his house in clarendon.

-I think "good" and "bad" classifications for typefaces are too harsh. what about "useful" and "not-so-useful?" I think the point to the statement: 'there are no bad typefaces' is that there is a use for every typeface. some may have a million uses, and some just one.

-Sonyl: There is an account executive in my office that you would fall in love with ;) You're wedding invitation could be in comic sans as well...

On Aug.24.2004 at 12:43 PM
jenny’s comment is:

Ok, I bought Whitman, and ... I love it! Just finished setting a program in it, its wonderful.

And since I said I'd probably thank you later, thanks Armin.

On Aug.25.2004 at 03:32 PM
Armin’s comment is:

No problem. Just be careful when setting text in small caps… you may drool on your keyboard.

On Aug.25.2004 at 04:51 PM
jenny’s comment is:

Yeah, already had that problem... ;0)

On Aug.25.2004 at 05:31 PM