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We Are You?

Inspired by the discussion generated by Mark Kingsley’s Hazardous Freedom post (before it de/evolved into type geek wars!) I thought I would extend the debate around the commercial appropriation of radical icons with another, even more blatant, if a little dated, example.

On New Years Day 1994, a group of mostly indigenous Mayan rebels, calling themselves the Zapatista National Liberation Army(in spanish, wikipedia description here), rose up against the Mexican Government, occupying San Crist�bal de las Casas and six other towns in the South-Eastern state of Chiapas. Although the occupation of the towns was, with few exceptions, peaceful (since the Zapatistas had taken the authorities by surprise), the first ten days of the uprising became very violent when the Mexican army attacked the towns and the air force started to bomb Zapatista villages. On the tenth of January, a massive demonstration in Mexico City calling for an end to the violence led to a declaration of cease-fire by the government, which was accepted by the rebels.

The cease-fire did not establish peace however, as the Zapatistas were far from conceding their demands for indigenous rights, but it forced them to recognise that other means of struggle, beyond armed conflict, would be necessary. Nor did the cease-fire last long and sporadic armed conflict in Chiapas continues to this day. Yet what came out of that brief cease-fire, is what has since made the Zapatista movement so unique and relevant, they began to truly use communication, language as their weapon. They were the first revolutionary group to take full advantage of the internet to disseminate their communiqués , thus connecting their local struggles to activists around the world. They used poetic language, abandoning the weighty rhetoric of traditional class struggle, arguing for inclusiveness, dialogue and dignity. In so doing they revealed themselves as a community in rebellion, a community of men, women and children, more than a revolutionary ‘group’.

In 1996, from the mountains of the Mexican Southeast, the Zapatistas organised the First Encounter for Humanity and against Neoliberalism, which was attended by thousands of people from around the world. In the opening address, they declared:

Behind our black mask,
behind our armed voice,
behind our unnameable name,
behind what you see of us,
behind this, we are you.
behind this, we are the same simple and ordinary men and women who are repeated in all races, painted in all colours, speak in all languages and live in all places.

Fast forward to 2001….
Box Fresh, a trendy AUS and UK based clothing brand launches a new street campaign:

They obviously realised that this whole zapatista thing was getting pretty cool, and felt in desperate need of some street cred. And in the store, they began selling “Zapatista Kits” for �30 which included a t-shirt, a stencil, and a can of grafitti. Boxfresh, leaders of the new revolution!

The interesting part of this story is that a local group of grassroots “troublemakers”, the space hijackers, took offense to this appropriation and started a campaign against the store handing out leaflets and defacing Boxfresh’s grafitti.

Eventually the Head of Marketing met with the group and to their surprise agreed to some interesting concessions:

1 - They would from this moment on donate every penny of profit from there Zapatista merchandise to the Zapatistas themselves.

2 - They would install a computer in the shop with a range of Zapatista sites on it.

3 - They would no longer put their logo on the adverts with Sub Comandante Marcos’s words on them.

4 - They would have a leaflet in the store explaining the history of the Zapatista’s and in all further marketing attempt to spread information about the Zapatista cause and their ethics as opposed to simply using them in soundbites and as an aesthetic.

Strange, good, bad, right, wrong? it’s hard to say… the eternal question of selling out to reach a broader audience.

But in the end it seemed that anti-capitalism was a hard sell for Boxfresh’s bosses and clientelle and they soon dropped the campaign. They still use the “we are you” slogan, but now they’re simply identifying with sexy youth, not revolutionary movements.

Of course graffiti is still cool, and harmless….

The question here is really just one of appropriation, nothing new. The criticism of the effectiveness of Adbusters type tactics of “détournment” with corporate logos/imagery has always interested me. But it seems even more intriguing when seen in reverse.

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PUBLISHED ON Jul.29.2004 BY Kevin
WITH COMMENTS
Comments
Armin’s comment is:

Kevin, this is a great post and obviously one that hits close to home (no pun intended). Also, I feel guilty about having turned Mark's discussion into the type-geek fest you mention. Anyhoo…

When the EZLN was born in Mexico, I was a very young and apathetic teenager. I could have cared less about what they did or how they did it or even why they did it. Remember, I said I was apathetic. Nonetheless, I did live through it and as I reflect on what it was then and what it is now I see their importance and feel like I ignorantly missed on history in the making. But reminiscing in the past doesn't do the body (or mind) good.

Between 1996-2000 Comandante Marcos' image became a fashion statement in Mexico just like the image of Che Guevara around the world. Although wearing a ski mask proved less fashionable than Che's star beret. Back then it still "meant" something to wear a t-shirt with the haunting image of the faceless leader. Seeing it appropriated by Box Fresh is indeed depressing — but not surprising.

I guess when it is something I can identify with (in this case I certainly do) it is quite more bothersome than seeing P. Diddy's appropriation of the black power salute.

Thanks for bringing this forth Kevin.

On Jul.29.2004 at 09:00 AM
Rob ’s comment is:

I think this is a great post but in some ways it only holds real meaning if you've lived it, as Armin did in Mexico, or as I did with the actions of Tommie Smith and John Carlos. What's even more intereseting is when I saw the red "We Are You" image, despite the text saying it was about the Zapatistas, the first 'emotional' reaction that came to mind, or shared image, was the of the Iraqui terrorists whose images have been emblazed on TVs and newstands here in the US.

As for the act of taking a revolutoinary movement and trying to use it to just sell clothes, well, it's down right despicable. It's one thing if you are using the image and the money to help aid the cause but to use the image/brand for your own personal gain, while probably capatlism at its finest, I do find personally offensive. And socially destructive. It almost demeans the whole movement but trivializing or turning it into something it really isn't, a fashion trend.

So, congrats to the cricket playing space hijackers for taking righting what was clearly a wrong.

On Jul.29.2004 at 09:38 AM
ak’s comment is:

I definitely agree that this avenue of branding is kind of sickening. But is it more sickening that it works? Some upper-middle-class kid sees some graffiti on the wall and says, "Yes. I hate my parents for some reason and this store IS ME. Look at that graffiti! They rebel WITH me!"

Making a faux rebellious brand is such an easy way out of creating an actual strong brand. It's kind of funny to think about places like Urban Outfitters that appear to be rebellious, underground, and they're owned by extreme conservatives. Maybe it's the nature of the beast. I'm sure BoxFresh could have found a better way to reach the hearts of young people. But I'm sure you'd agree it's a bigger problem...drum roll.......SOCIETY! HOORAY!

On Jul.29.2004 at 10:04 AM
David Sudlow’s comment is:

To add a slight twist to this very pertinent and relavant post...

The commercial appropriation of iconic imagery (including type and language) which surrounds and more or less embodies contemporary culture, whether we admit to it or not, is something which poses serious threats to the very 'position' graphic design holds in society. By this I mean the perception of what designers do / what they are interested in / what is 'graphics' etc. is damaged by these appropriation-marketing campaigns. Graphic design is not commercial appropriation. That is advertising.

One concern I have is that currently, in design educational establishments in the UK, many students of graphic design look to these commercial appropriations for inspiration — to 'see what graphics is'. And, significantly, they are oblivious to the aforementioned histories and references behind it all. The immediacy expected by people seems to make reason superflous. I wonder how many design students could have informed me of the 'Box Fresh story'.

Box Fresh, Urban Outfitters, Sprite... all eagerly climb into bed with design colleges and universties, sponsoring projects, with the ultimate goals of being 'accepted' by designers and, of course, increasing their hold in the market place. Dangerously, this talk moves the debate into the (undecided) territory of what is graphic design as a professional practice...

This perhaps strays from Kevin's original post, which is what we as graphic designers should be concerning ourselves with, but I feel it holds significant attachment to the wider picture here.

On Jul.30.2004 at 04:44 AM
Kevin Lo’s comment is:

I guess when it is something I can identify with (in this case I certainly do) it is quite more bothersome than seeing P. Diddy's appropriation of the black power salute.

yeah Armin, I thought you might have a bit of a personal connection with this story. Glad you found it interesting, if a little disturbing. I've read a lot about the zapatistas given my political bent, but at the same time I don't think I can really relate to it the way that you can. Nonetheless I was deeply offended when I saw the campaign, even just the "we are you" posters. Though the zapatistas may not be me, Boxfresh certainly isn't either.

That being said, I don't think it only holds real meaning if you've lived it. As I stated briefly in the post, what really made the zapatistas interesting for me is their ability to connect their local struggle to a global community through technology, language and "propaganda of the deed". It is interesting to me, though not really surprising per se, how some people have expressed stronger connections to the "black power rip-off" or to this "zapatista rip-off", whereas I feel equally affronted by both. I'm neither black nor mexican, but what I've learned from the zapatistas (among many others) is that I CAN and even should relate to their struggles. And when it comes down to it, it simply angers me to see a company blatantly manipulate something which people hold dear.

the first 'emotional' reaction that came to mind, or shared image, was the of the Iraqui terrorists

That's pretty interesting Rob, and brings up another interesting issue. Though the zapatistas themselves have undoubtedly cultivated a militant revolutionary imagery (dare I even say it, "brand"?), it is also the only aspect which mainstream media picks up and glorifies. This is the reason I included the image of the poster at the bottom of my post. I think it is important for us to see the contrast between how Boxfresh sees the zapatistas and how they choose to represent themselves. It's a beautiful poster, no?

Great link on Urban Outfitters Aaron. Damn, I was always really suspicious of them since seeing their faux broken glass windows but I never understood the extent to which they sucked.

And thanks for brining up some great points David, I don't think it strays from the intentions of the post. But to combat some cynicism, the fact of the matter is I am a "Design Student in the UK" and with all modesty, not a very exceptional one at that (if you want to look at my grades!!!). And here I am telling this story.

Of course it should be the role of education to make students think critically, and there are definitely some failings in that department (see the Masters Thesis thread) but nonetheless I think its important to not underestimate students.

The blurry line between design and advertising, I've written about that before and though I agree that there should be some spearation, at the same time they are historically, culturally and even technically linked. There was a great article in Eye Magazine a long while back entitled "Design Is Advertising", forget by whom. I don't refer to this in order to cheapen either profession, but I think it's important that we realise this so that the wealth of criticism levelled against advertising be levelled at design as well, in so doing we broaden design discourse, connecting it to a larger (perceived) role in society, and deepen the awareness of its students and practitioners, rather than placing design into some neutral ivory tower of typography and layout. Design IS complicit in all the ways society receives information, and as we struggle to get "ordinary people" to recognise the important role design plays, we should recognise all the bad that comes with the good.

On Jul.30.2004 at 07:37 AM
Sebastian’s comment is:

Stickers, Stencils & "Ambient Media" in London

A bit of context

(i am a stickler for that, am i?)

I must've walked by one of those Boxfresh stencils on a daily basis and never noticed them, maybe because they got mixed up with the Adidas stenclis, the Nike stenclis/stickers, the VW guerrillla posters ... which in turn got mixed-up with Banksy and Eine, Fairey and many others ... In the last few years the East End of London has been the stie of a 'street graphics explosion', and a bunch of young ad agencies (Mother, Cake, &c) — many of which actually employed some of the original street artists — were there right at the beginning. So now, it has become almost mandatory (a new tradition) for 'lifestyle brands' to include some sort of 'ambient media' among their campaign requirements and pester the streets of East London (supposedly where trendsetters reside) it has also become almost mandatory for undergrad design students to produce some sort of 'street' project while at school, which adds to the already saturated landscape. Rather than a 'subversive' public practice it has become the official decor of the area, and the practioners responsible woriking both sides of the indie/corporate line, the appropriation doesn't surprise me one bit. Although I think it has more to do with the popularity of Banksy's stencil work and his own appropriation of 60s political propaganda (btw: lately sponsored by Diesel, and selling books like hot cakes) than with the zapatista source. Personally I'm just tired of it all, most of the work is boring and uninspired, and it's just become another reflection of London's unregulated Adscape.

It goes a bit off-topic, but i thought the backgorund might be interesting for those of you outside London.

On Jul.30.2004 at 08:18 AM
Andrew Twigg’s comment is:

I am going to go out on a limb and say a few things about this. Some of you will probably be upset with me for this. Understand that I am not about to write this to be inflammatory. Rather, I am writing this so that we can pause long enough to consider a few things. Perhaps these ideas are not new or revolutionary, but from time to time I think it is helpful to look around for another perspective.

So, as for appropriation:

1. Consider that everything is appropriated in due time. Perhaps the immediate appropriation of something like the Zapistata's message and imagery is simply speeding the process along. Is this something that was bound to happen eventually? (Probably.) Regardless, does that make it ok? (I don't know.)

2. The alarm over ignorant appropriation of imagery is pointless if the audience doesn't "get it" for what it "is" instead of what it "seems to be". Pardon the quotes, but let me explain. A designer cannot deliver a message to a viewer if the viewer doesn't have the needed information to decifer the message. The awareness of the audience concerning a particular schema/language/signifier directly impacts the ability of the audience to understand a message... of course, so does the knowledge of the designer/author.

If I am naive to the meaning of a symbol and I use it inappropraitely, a few things happen: a) the symbol loses meaning because it is used in a "wrong" context and even a knowledgable audience cannot decifer the message; b) the symbol changes meaning because it is reframed in a new context which supplies its meaning and erases the old; c) the audience understands the symbol differently than the designer because neither has proper knowledge and the symbol is insufficiently contextual; d) the "wrong" meaning is conveyed (from an author perspective) because the context has failed; e) no one "gets it," everyone gets the intended meaning, and life moves on.

Of course, there are other outcomes... these are first at mind. I would argue, however, that the general ignorance of the audience for a consumer good affects the use of historical/appropriated imagery because they cannot possibly understand it anyway. What, then, is the problem of appropriation at all? For example, the swastika works only as a certain kind of graphic element because knowledge of its meaning is strong and broad, and available even to a naive audience. Therefore, it can't be used to sell clothing, unless you're selling to an audience which most people would decry. However, other symbols may be appropriated without such risk: few signifiers carry the weight of the swastika and might fare quite well to convey something other than that which they historically/culturally signify in context.

3. All of this said, I will take the position that, of course, a designer needs to know what they're doing. They should be aware of the meanings of the items they use/borrow/create. It is in the best interest of the audience if the designer is more knowledgeable than they. But that said, I begin to return to the question at hand: is it "wrong" for a designer to inappropriately appropriate something? If that "something" will serve the author best in communicating to the audience, then how can it be wrong? What is effective communication is effective communication.

I recognize the flaw in this statement. From this point, one could argue that using the swastika "out of context" isn't such a bad thing. Of course, conventional wisdom tells us otherwise. On the other hand, should somebody be about the business of liberating the swastika from it's popular associations? It didn't always represent holocaust, persecution, racism, genocide, and one of the ugliest times in world history.

So, this is my take on appropriation. At least right now.

On Jul.30.2004 at 02:41 PM
Kevin Lo’s comment is:

Hey Andrew, actually I'm really glad you brought up these points, because though it might not show in my post, both sides of the question of appropriation have been stewing in my mind for quite some time.

You're very much right in addressing the "irrelevance" of the sign's connection to the actual idea/context of its origination. When it comes down to it, how does this use of Marcos' imagery and words, really have any effect on the zapatista struggle?

In many ways, it simply doesn't, so what's the problem? Does it convey the intended message, that Boxfresh is "street"? It does to a certain extent, but at the same time, the campaign in the end was a failure. Those who would've reacted to the Zapatista message are very unlikely to be lured into shopping at Boxfresh anyways. In the end they generalised, kept the slogan and dropped the "politics".

the symbol changes meaning because it is reframed in a new context which supplies its meaning and erases the old;

I guess this is what I'm concerned about, but again, if the audience didn't understand it in the first place, then it doesn't really matter. And for those that do understand it, like myself, it isn't going to erase my own knowledge or change my understanding.

Yet, of course, I still can't help feeling that this is somehow "wrong". On an ideological level. It's dishonest. I think most of us can agree to that. But in arguing it rationally, the argument seems pretty thin.

On Jul.31.2004 at 09:16 AM
Kevin Lo’s comment is:

What is effective communication is effective communication.

hmmmm.....

Effective communication vs. Honest communication. reminds me of this old discussion. ahhh... good times.

On Jul.31.2004 at 09:20 AM
Andrew Twigg’s comment is:

Kevin, you are absolutely right that there is a difference between effective and honest communication.

But, what we as designers are often given is the charge to persuade. When we're working for a client, it's rare that we determine what is supposed to be communicated. Our task is to determine how to communicate.

Ultimately - and I'm not trying to take the topic off conversation - I believe that it is our responsibility to provide our services for things we believe are without deciet, and do it in a way which is not deceitful. Whether or not appropriation is deceitful is, as far as I am concerned, up for grabs.

On Jul.31.2004 at 11:03 AM
graham’s comment is:

appropriation (of any kind) is a cop-out (and, yes, deceitful). david's points are important here, as is andrew's 'swastika' example (the exception that proves the rule-it should absolutely be reappropriated; perhaps restored is better word). i think this is a really important debate and has been at the heart of many many debates over the last 15 years at least-particularly because it is in that period, perhaps moreso than any other in the last 50 years or so,that content, meaning, 'messages' have been driven by those in the fields of design, advertising, marketing etc. (and ultimately they are one field-they were in the 20's, 30's, 40's, up until a brief period through the 80's where advertising, particularly, was isolated from other commercial arts, and they are again now) rather than their clients.

this is at the crux of it-the client (for good or bad) has something to say. either they sell a service or a product or they are an idea or a process. this has meaning, probably history, certainly stories and potentially ethos, methodology, passion, commitment (again, for good or bad). to express this demands that one works, builds, makes things out of and for that client. the work comes out of one's reaction to, connection with and passion for what the client does-and if that is not there, then the passion for what one can do for them. these two things can usually work, in different measures, together to form the results of any given project. if the person working with the client on their published material (design, advertising, film, event, music etc) has something to say too, then the work is rich and has a life of it's own. it is of itself.

so, where does the worm eating it's own tail come into this? i've visited a few advertising and design places. the 'libraries' tend to consist of awards annuals, design reference books, media magazines . . . the conversation tends to be either about the latest 'edgy' campaign or how a designer or art director has just found this book of 'wicked' posters from paris '68 and how no one else has picked up on it yet . . . and the first step in fulfilling a brief being to gather 'reference' material, to make 'mood' boards . . . and the wheel goes round . . .

On Aug.02.2004 at 02:27 PM
Héctor Mu�oz Huerta’s comment is:

I wouldn’t like to sound as the ass fo the party but from my personal point of view Marcos and the Zapatistas are only using indians for their own benefit.

There is Zapatista propaganda in rock concerts made by those who were supporting the UNAM strike which so badly hurted the universities and scientific research in our country. Zapatistas are as well in the mafious national teachers union strikes which are used with electoral intentions causing kids to loose lots of school days every year, they are part of many doubtful and corrupted political movements. They keep the army away from drug cultives and keep refusing dialogue with everyone who doesn’t agree with them, including the government.

Their merit was the smart use of media to attract the world attention to support themselves with the public opinion.

Their flag is a fair one, and it reminded us of the unequalities in our society but they do not really stand for what they speak for.

On Aug.02.2004 at 04:52 PM
Andrew Twigg’s comment is:

Graham

I don't agree with you that "appropriation (of any kind) is a cop-out (and, yes, deceitful)." Why do I say this? Because every day signs are appropriated, reappropriated, modified, stylized, moved, or otherwise altered. It is this which allows us to communicate.

I cannot say that it is a cop-out, because I believe a "good" designer will do what is necessary to communicate a point. If appropriation is part of that, then so be it.

Perhaps I needed someone to come out and say appropriation is deceitful, but clearly I feel more passionate about appropriation than I thought. Earlier I said, "whether or not appropriation is deceitful is, as far as I am concerned, up for grabs." Graham, I would now argue that appropriation is not always deceitful. I wonder about the role of appropriation in political commentary or for parody. It seems possible that sometimes appropriation may be the only way to make the point.

On Aug.02.2004 at 06:59 PM
graham’s comment is:

andrew-'I would now argue that appropriation is not always deceitful.'

of course, i'd have to agree-i shouldn't have said 'of any kind'-buti was being much more simplistic in my thoughts about the 'problem' of appropriation. i wasn't really talking about l.h.o.o.q., or warhol, or jamie reid, or peter savile, or the use of a shape, a colour, a letterform etc.. comedy, for example, wouldn't be particularly comedic, for the large part, if it wasn't to do with some form of appropriation.

but we're talking about graphic design, advertising and marketing-and in that context, yes, i still can't see how taking and remaking (with little alteration-certainly no alteration in the duchampian sense-except for a clients logo and perhaps to make the appropriation more 'accessible') existing work, usually without agreement or credit, to promote/sell a product is anything but a cop-out on the designer/art directors part (because more often than not it is done because it easy, and because the appropriated work is already finished, ready to be 'mood-boarded' and sold almost complete as an idea to a client). deceitful? yes-and i agree with you-sometimes. the fischli and weiss' "the way things go"/honda case is a good example.

one question: where/when would this kind of appropriation be necessary?

On Aug.03.2004 at 05:51 AM
graham’s comment is:

andrew-'I would now argue that appropriation is not always deceitful.'

of course, i'd have to agree-i shouldn't have said 'of any kind'-buti was being much more simplistic in my thoughts about the 'problem' of appropriation. i wasn't really talking about l.h.o.o.q., or warhol, or jamie reid, or peter savile, or the use of a shape, a colour, a letterform etc.. comedy, for example, wouldn't be particularly comedic, for the large part, if it wasn't to do with some form of appropriation.

but we're talking about graphic design, advertising and marketing-and in that context, yes, i still can't see how taking and remaking (with little alteration-certainly no alteration in the duchampian sense-except for a clients logo and perhaps to make the appropriation more 'accessible') existing work, usually without agreement or credit, to promote/sell a product is anything but a cop-out on the designer/art directors part (because more often than not it is done because it easy, and because the appropriated work is already finished, ready to be 'mood-boarded' and sold almost complete as an idea to a client). deceitful? yes-and i agree with you-sometimes. the fischli and weiss' "the way things go"/honda case is a good example.

one question: where/when would this kind of appropriation be necessary?

On Aug.03.2004 at 05:53 AM
Andrew Twigg’s comment is:

Graham - in my most recent post, as I am concerned, appropriation is most in order when engaged in commentary or parody.

I think what's interesting here is how this discussion is turning. It seems at first that this was about appropriating a culture's/cultural movement's imagery, but we're moving on to the appropriation of someone's commercial work.

In this context, it is harder to defend appropriation... but I can't imagine a world without it. Is it a common event that a client will ask a designer "Hey, I really like this brochure. Can you do something like it?" At this point the designer may be facing an up-hill battle against appropriation. It's more common for me that a client will see something I've done for another client and ask for the same thing. Then it's my problem to explain why a good solution for one client may not be a solution at all for another.

At the risk of turning the conversation once again, this is why I don't keep design magazines, monograms, or "graphic showcase"/case-study books around. I stopped subscribing to CommArts before i even graduated from college. I feel a designer should be more informed by the world around them than by the work of their peers. Looking at the latest design annual for ideas is only going to make it harder to not appropriate something.

On Aug.03.2004 at 07:21 AM
Kevin Lo’s comment is:

In an attempt to bring another angle to this discussion and perhaps somehow bring it back to the original thread, I was thinking about the semantic differences between appropriation, quotation, reference, and parody.

Parody seems easiest - recently found out that it is protected from libel laws, and the way that works is that it has to be obvious that its intention is not a factual reference to the original.

Quotation, I've just recently completed a project using a collection of direct (credited) quotations and after printing it, reading it and thinking about it, now have a little bit of mixed feelings about that approach(which I've actually used for quite a few text-based projects). There was no intended subversion(as in parody), but of course there was a decontextualisation, and while I was working on it at the same time as making this post, am not sure whether to feel a little hypocritical or not. Granted I'm not trying to sell clothes with it, but I'm still using another's words for my own ends.

Is intentionality and execution the issue, as in the Scher vs. Saville debates?

On Aug.05.2004 at 09:13 AM
graham’s comment is:

maybe it's a question of necessity, kevin-i can see where quotation, reference and parody would be necessary, but i don't see where appropriation is a necessity-a choice, an approach, yes, but not a necessity. maybe it's me. or the heat.

what's the scher vs. saville debate?

On Aug.05.2004 at 09:33 AM
Armin’s comment is:

> what's the scher vs. saville debate?

I was wondering the same thing. Did you mean the Scher / Beal debate? As in the Swatch / Swiss poster…

The wily thing about appropriation — compared to parody or reference — is that it disregards the original and claims it its own for other (usually opposite and inappropriate) uses. Usually when we talk about appropriation such is the case. Is there good appropriation?

On Aug.05.2004 at 09:41 AM
Kevin Lo’s comment is:

sorry, there was no actual scher vs. saville debate. my bad for putting it that way.

But what I was trying to bring up was that Saville's appropriation, because of his exacting attention to detail and it's "artistic" context, the détournment of placing high art on record sleeves etc. has been critically acclaimed whereas Scher's Swatch poster has received extensive criticism for doing a similar thing but from a much more "commercial" context.

Just some thoughts. I love 'em both.

On Aug.05.2004 at 09:50 AM
M Kingsley’s comment is:

was that Saville's appropriation, because of his exacting attention to detail and it's "artistic" context, the détournment of placing high art on record sleeves etc. has been critically acclaimed

Kevin, as someone who loves to go on and on about theory, I think you — and perhaps the folks you're getting this idea from — are reading way too much into the simple act of finding an illustration for a package. Saville's use of a Fantin-Latour has the smell of appropriation, but it was properly credited and used with permission from the National Gallery.

And I don't think Paula Scher has any less exacting attention to detail, only differing sensibilities.

Apples.

Oranges.

Roses.

Orange you glad I didn't mention semiotics.

On Aug.05.2004 at 10:38 AM
Kevin Lo’s comment is:

true, true, true, mark. I wasn't trying to elevate Saville's work to genius or anything like that (though the closer cover still sends shivers down my spine), or play down Scher's work, just that they've been received quite differently...

can we get back a bit to appropriation? As a politically engaged designer, I'm interested in forms of communication that are resistant to co-option. I don't really think its possible, or even desireable really, but it is an interesting idea.

On Aug.05.2004 at 10:44 AM
graham’s comment is:

' . . . I wasn't trying to elevate Saville's work to genius'

you don't need to, kevin-it's already there.

On Aug.05.2004 at 10:52 AM
Don Julio’s comment is:

Detour here? But regarding the topic title of "We are You" and without making this discussion political, I can barely pass a Starbucks or street corner without a DNC, or RNC or Greenpeace (for that matter) representative bearing a clipboard and aksing me to sign up for their cause. Here are these young, attractive, barely-old-enough-to-vote die hard enthusiasts asking me, a complete unknown, to them, to rally to their issues and believe what they believe. I'm putting the value of the causes aside here for the sake of discussion...

Aren't these happy zombies in party t-shirts being utilized by these groups in the same "We are you" context? I resist labels being thrust upon me, and can often agree and disagree with issues from both sides. I tend to take offense at being approached by a "We are you" crowd and being almost expected to instantly align with their cause. If the focus was on the singular issue of registering to vote, without the any parties being represented, their actions would ring with greater sincerity.

Corporate giants, clothing companies, political causes, and even Adbusters are all using people and propaganda to subversively further the issues they feel are important under the "We are you" flag and guise of guerilla marketing. It is up to each of us to be educated, informed, and not used as a tool for anyone else's agenda... unless we choose to be.

On Aug.05.2004 at 11:24 AM