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Please be Careful

This is the opening “address” I presented at the 8th Annual Packaging and Brand Design conference organized by the Institute for International Research held in New York City on June 22, 2004.

How much money do you make? Have you ever contemplated suicide? Have you ever taken an anti-depressant? Have you ever bounced a check? Have you ever taken a pill to enhance your sexual performance? Have you ever had sex on a cellphone? On a computer? Yes? No? Why? Why not?

You may not believe this, but in 1967—yes 1967—a year when many people in this room were not even born, Marshall McLuhan described a culture of universal, tyrannical womb-to-tomb surveillance causing a very serious dilemma between our claim to privacy and society’s need to know. The traditional ideas of private, isolated thoughts and actions are no longer private and here’s the real catch—they are no longer erasable. Welcome to the 21st century and our new, google-ized world. We have reached a point where our personal histories…when we go to the bank, when we pay a toll to go over a bridge, when we buy Pepperidge Farm cookies or Dial soap or Kraft Macaroni & Cheese or Thermasilk shampoo, when we charge a hotel room or rent a car…all of this is permanently recorded and identifiable. What are the ramifications of this new common, available knowledge, now that we have become so involved with each other, now that all of us have become the unwitting result of technological advancement?

According to McLuhan, one of the results of this open-network of information and revelation is that our character is no longer simply shaped by our families. The whirlpool of information fathered by this new techno-society far surpasses the influence that our moms and dads used to bring to bear. Now, at the beginning of the 21st century, we are living in sensory overload: we determine our beauty factor by comparing ourselves to airbrushed super-models and surgically enhanced celebrities, our intelligence by answering questions correctly on Jeopardy, our fear factor by considering whether or not to be covered in maggots while we eat rat feces, our sports acumen by watching and worshipping steroid pumped ear biters, gamblers and murderers, our bravery by war-obsessed leaders, and our leadership by sex-obsessed presidents.

It is a really perplexing time in our little corner of the universe. This lack of personal privacy and mass consumption of information has changed the way we relate, perceive and live. While we may be lucky in that we can google “American presidents” and in .6 seconds get 1,890,000 results, we can also google “xanax” and find 760 places to buy this pharmaceutical illegally. Ultimately access to information becomes both a privilege and a responsibility. I am not sure we quite get this yet.

“Hmmmm,” you may be saying. How does this have anything to do with packaging? Why is this being talked about at a conference about brand design? The answer is actually relatively easy. Packaging and brand design is not just about design anymore. There is no more “mass market” in which to target a product. There is no one demographic picture of the planet. I saw Grant McCracken speak two weeks ago, and he discussed how while lifestyle typologies expanded to first 3, then 6, then 9 and then 12 typologies—there is now too much variation and we have reached categorical exhaustion.

As a result, I have come to believe that the term brand design ultimately undermines the job we do as brand consultants, marketers, designers and strategists. Brand design is not only about design. It is the perfect, meticulously crafted balance of cultural anthropology, psychology, marketing and creativity. It is about cultural anthropology because what we do in our culture—whether it is an obsession with reality television or weapons of mass destruction, this has a major impact on the brands around us. It is about psychology because if we don’t fundamentally understand the brain circuitry of our audience and really know what they are thinking—and why they are thinking it!—we will not be able to solicit their imagination. It is about marketing because understanding the marketplace and the messaging impacts and influences perception. It is about creativity because if we don’t create a pretty package, then consumers won’t notice it and buy it. Yeah, right. What is the lead gene in this equation?

Rather than call it brand design, I believe is it more about brand composition. Brands are so persuasive in their personal, political, economic, aesthetic, psychological, moral, ethical and social consequences that they leave no part of us untouched, unaffected, and unaltered. Any knowledge of culture is impossible now without an understanding of the implications of “brand.” We have entered a day and age where brand is an extension of human facility, whether it be psychic or psychological. Print technology created the public. Electric technology created the mass. Computer technology created globalization. And now brand technology creates culture. Our culture has gotten to a place in our collective history where it is almost entirely composed of brands. Everything we consume—even the most basic commodities like water and salt—are brands. Experiences are brands. People are brands. Our role models are people, and thus our role models have become brands. It is circular, it is insidious and it isn’t going to stop. The more information we have—the more access to information we have, the more capacity we will have to particpate in the composition of our human experiences. And for every human experience there will now be a corresponding brand.

No-logo-ers like Naomi Klein think this isn’t so good. Pro-logo-ers like Wally Olins is fine with it. I think they are both missing the eye of the hurricane in this debate. Whether it is good or bad is really just an attempt to understand the condition and judge it. Determining whether is it good or bad is not going to stop or encourage it in any way. I believe that the full ramification of this type of cultural evolution is yet to be fully understood. We are enveloped by brands. They form a seamless web around us. What are the ramifications of this totally branded society? Branded relationships? Branded sexuality? What are the ramifications of a branded government? Brands are now just about anything you can get away with.

Brands, by changing the culture in which we participate, evoke a unique composition of sensory perceptions. The extension of any one of these sensory perceptions alters the way we think and act—and the way we perceive the world. When these perceptions change, people change. I contend that brand composition has more impact on our culture than any other medium.

And guess what? We are the composers, the arbiters, the instigators of that medium. It is our practices that are now creating the perception of the world we live in. But as Montaigne said, “The thing of it is, we must live with the living.” And living in our future—from this view anyway, seems dangerous. Perhaps, as A.H. Whitehead said, “it is the business of the future to be dangerous.” But as we sit on the precipice of a branded universe, I ask us all, I ask myself, to be careful. As we compose our branded stories, as we weave our myths and hope and dreams into our brands, as we project our fantasies and lusts, needs and demands into our brands, let’s remember our frailty and strengths and foibles and failings. Let’s remember our humanity. And let’s try and be careful. Please. Be careful.

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ENTRY DETAILS
ARCHIVE ID 1990 FILED UNDER Essays
PUBLISHED ON Jun.23.2004 BY debbie millman
WITH COMMENTS
Comments
big steve’s comment is:

Goddamn!

Debbie for President 2004

On Jun.24.2004 at 08:44 AM
Greg’s comment is:

What are the ramifications of this new common, available knowledge, now that we have become so involved with each other, now that all of us have become the unwitting result of technological advancement?

I think one of the ramifications is accountability for one's actions. Also, a basic human perception will have to be changed - judgement. If you can constantly monitor someone's life, and everyone has that power, people's perceptions of "right" and "wrong" will shift. Suddenly everyone has dirty laundry. There's no closed door anymore, and therefore reason has to take center stage. "Why" becomes more important than "what."

Maybe when brands enter a stage like that, they have a choice - back off and die, or become more pervasive, more in-your-face and survive. We, as designers, brand managers/creators, are forced to be at the helm of that. I think this might be why graphic designers have such identity crises, and must constantly justify their work; we are at once the be-all/end-all controllers of society, and also its most expendable members.

Or maybe I just had too much coffee this morning.

On Jun.24.2004 at 09:20 AM
M. Kingsley’s comment is:

No-logo-ers like Naomi Klein think this isn’t so good. Pro-logo-ers like Wally Olins is fine with it. I think they are both missing the eye of the hurricane in this debate. Whether it is good or bad is really just an attempt to understand the condition and judge it.

Debbie,

I'm getting hung up on this passage's ambiguity. Could you elaborate a bit?

On Jun.24.2004 at 09:35 AM
debbie millman’s comment is:

Hey Mark--

I can, and will. I am a little slammed right now, but will contribute as soon as I can. Hope you are cool with that.

Oh and...I love ambiguity.

; )

On Jun.24.2004 at 09:43 AM
sheryl’s comment is:

Everything we consume—even the most basic commodities like water and salt—are brands.

I typically don't "Morten's my food". I will salt my food. I will blow my nose on a Kleenex, even if it is Puffs. I am not "brand aware" when I am using these items, but: if I am purchasing these items I do pay attention. Because the brand is better? No, because the product is better. If a product alienates a consumer due to poor quality, the consumer will look for an equivalent product to replace it with. Regardless of the brand.

I do wonder, how far it will go. Will Viagra come out with their own line of baby furniture? At birth will we be assigned a sku number??

Hmm....(insert favorite brand) food for thought

On Jun.24.2004 at 10:40 AM
marian’s comment is:

I don't know, Debbie. I don't see partaking of the brand experience the same thing as using or being subjected to branded items.

If you and I are having a conversation, in real time, on the grass under the sky, and you are drinking a Starbucks coffee, is that a branded moment? If I am watching a sports game on TV and there are logos plastering the side-boards, the players are wearing branded sportswear, and the screen is branded with the Network, the local station and Tivo, is it a branded experience--and if so--whose?

It's like I said at the end of Tan's thread, I love my Subaru, but I don't feel a part of any sort of Subaru "Culture" even though I know they are attempting to build one and put me in it. It's just a car. Or a coffee. Or some toilet paper.

Maybe my perspective is a bit removed, what with living on an island in Canada and not watching much TV, but it seems to me that actual branded experience is quite rare (and nonexistent in *my* life). Going to Disneyworld would be one of them. Apple fanaticism is another. Shopping at Niketown is probably another.

But do people *really* say or think or feel "I am Levis, and it is me?" Or do they say "I like these jeans, I'd buy them again"?

I think Culture comes from people, not corporations, and Experience is so multi-faceted that it cannot possibly be owned or "branded."

I tend to see this rise of so-called branding more as clutter than anything else. I find it more irritating than insidious, and more confusing than unifying.

But perhaps ... in the sci-fi future when only a few major corporations are left in control of every product on the planet, we will indeed have truly branded experience and will find ourselves at war with each other: Unilever vs. CocaCola; Nike vs. TimeWarner.

On Jun.24.2004 at 11:28 AM
Armin’s comment is:

> I think Culture comes from people, not corporations, and Experience is so multi-faceted that it cannot possibly be owned or "branded."

This is a good point. Without people's actions and reactions to a brand, any brand, there is no brand experience. Niketown can create the most perfect space to "experience" the Nike brand but if people don't own it it doesn't work. During the conference I read or heard this (paraphrasing): Branding is an inviation to participate. Not sure who said it though, so I apologize for the lack of source. However that is a great definition of what branding, good branding, can do: invite people to participate and share with a singular brand, it's an invitation to own the brand.

Tying in with Tan's heated thread, it is easy to say that giant brands impose the experience on us but it is actually all of us who inform how those experiences are created. Big brands, along with their brand and advertising consultancies, are reacting to our reaction of the brand. They don't give us "more" just for the sake of it, it is because we all want "more". More of what? More of anything: more jeans, more salt, more subarus, more reality TV, more "culture jammers". Yes, these big corporations thrust their message down our throats but it's not like we are not asking for it.

As them geniuses say: Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

A branded world — and a big one at that — is not the making of evil empires and conglomerates it is a reflection of all of us.

Sorry if I was redundant or said "brand" too many times… I woke up in NY at 4:30 am and I'm now in Chicago.

And lastly, this essay — in written form — pales in comparison to Debbie's on-stage, witty delivery.

On Jun.24.2004 at 11:46 AM
Steve Mock’s comment is:

Kingsley said it best:

"When everything is branded, nothing is branded."

On Jun.24.2004 at 12:10 PM
Tan’s comment is:

I agree w/ much of what marian said. I love brands, but I'm not sure my life is just a series of brand experiences. It might get to that point sometime in the future, but right now, people still have the ability to filter their surroundings.

Look at Japan. Nowhere is there such a vast difference as downtown Tokyo and the rural countryside. One has leapedfrog into the 23rd century, while the other still clings to its feudal 16th century past.

Downtown Tokyo is the living, breathing embodiment of the brand machine—fed by technology, and fostering a culture that changes by the minute. Rural Japan is completely the opposite. But people there somehow find a way to reconcile the two worlds. They know what's real. They understand and remember the values that make us human.

Let's not start fearing robotic wars between the nation of Coke vs. the nation of Pepsi, etc. That's nonsense.

Think about it. We're still fighting wars based on religious differences and blood feuds that trace back for more than a thousand years. We still fervently cling to our cultural differences and identity more than anything else in this world, even as technology makes us more equal.

Think of brands as a new, global language. One we all learn to speak and share. But that doesn't mean we have to abandon our native, cultural tongues. It's like being bilingual, and having to reconcile differences in culture, old vs new, and subtleties of expression. It's no different.

Brands may change our lives, but they won't define it. I say it's all good.

On Jun.24.2004 at 12:10 PM
bryony’s comment is:

It's like I said at the end of Tan's thread, I love my Subaru, but I don't feel a part of any sort of Subaru "Culture" even though I know they are attempting to build one and put me in it. It's just a car. Or a coffee. Or some toilet paper.

If you sit for a second and go back to those youthful days when you had no idea who you were, and you needed some help in defining your identity, do you recall the day when you finally went shopping with your mom and got the new Keds everybody had to have, the latest Gameboy game, the Gap t-shirt, or the Trapper Keeper that you didn’t really like but had to have…

Was that a branded period of your life?

In many ways, as (strong and independent) adults we loose the need to have the brand that will identify us and separate us from the rest, but I don’t really think we ever fully stop. You will make first choices based on the kind of people or group you want to relate with, by purchasing a specific brand or a branded lifestyle (in the middle of Japan, or a remote island in Canada) that will be the beginning of your selections. It may happen you change brands once you recognize a better option, but your initial selection will be influenced by the “brand idea” that someone put in your head, and that is without a doubt a branded moment.

On Jun.24.2004 at 12:50 PM
ps’s comment is:

Think about it. We're still fighting wars based on religious differences and blood feuds that trace back for more than a thousand years. We still fervently cling to our cultural differences and identity more than anything else in this world, even as technology makes us more equal.

but then, in some parts of the population religion has been replaced by brands. and i don't think single brands, but groupings of brands. so its not starbucks alone, or subaru, but the combination of your choices. i believe by what you buy, where you buy you are part of a group within society that expresses beliefs and the desire to belong just as churches fullfill, or have fullfilled the same roles. brand wars are going on just as religious wars are going on, but at this point they might be fought in different ways.

On Jun.24.2004 at 01:07 PM
Tan’s comment is:

>brand wars are going on just as religious wars are going on, but at this point they might be fought in different ways.

how so? Can you please expand with an example of what you mean here Peter?

On Jun.24.2004 at 01:11 PM
Schmitty’s comment is:

Just a thought (or two or four):

Do we change our personal value system regarding branding based on the type of product we are considering?

eg

"Always get the softer toilet paper even though it is more expensive."

OR

"Just pick up some spackle, I don't care which brand, spackle is spackle."

And how is our value system effected when it comes to the price of one item over another? Do we tend to let ourselves be branded by items that are more significant-say the vehicle we drive vs the shoes we wear? If yes, is this our way of justifying to others (and ourselves), the large amount of money involved in the purchase?

On Jun.24.2004 at 01:38 PM
Feluxe Socksmell’s comment is:

Experiences are brands. People are brands. Our role models are people, and thus our role models have become brands. It is circular, it is insidious and it isn’t going to stop.

certainly talking about brands isnt either. i like it to those who continue to dwell on the importance and significance of Clinton's sexcapades (brand) rahter than his creation of 27 million jobs (logos, identities)- whaich was more than Reagan and Bush combined.

No logo. No brand. No bush. I've gone insane.

On Jun.24.2004 at 02:20 PM
James’s comment is:

Interesting about the future of branding. At NextFest this year I saw an ID badge designed by Nike. Of course it was cool, of course it had the swoosh but the idea of having a brand represent you as a human was a little more than I could bear.

Q: What does your Nike ID Bracelet say about you as a person?

A: It says this is my social security number, my medical history, the brand of bread i buy the most....

On Jun.24.2004 at 02:23 PM
marian’s comment is:

If you sit for a second and go back to those youthful days when you had no idea who you were

I dunno, maybe I'm different, maybe my formative years occurred before we were overtly branded, maybe my memory is bad, maybe I'm self-delusional, but I don't remember this moment. I've always had a huge aversion to joining anything--and have also had a knee-jerk reaction *against* whatever the crowd is doing.

Even though today I don't know who I am, when I was a kid I felt I *did* know who I was and I didn't identify myself by anything other than my own self-expression. I could regale you with tales of what a freak I was, but I will spare all of us.

But I don't think I was that unusual. And given the "artsy" nature of the graphic design crowd, I'd bet that many here can relate.

However, am I just totally out of it? I don't have kids, and I'm kindof aware that that Identity With Brand is more of a thing now than it was when I was a kid, but how prevalent is it, really?

And how do you know? Where's the line between "I need a shirt, I'll go to Roots." "I need a shirt, I like the ones from the Roots ads." "I need a shirt from Roots." "I am Roots; I must have a new Roots shirt."?

When you enter the branded moment, does it hurt?

by purchasing a specific brand or a branded lifestyle (in the middle of Japan, or a remote island in Canada) that will be the beginning of your selections.

But this is what I'm saying. Liking something and making selections is not being branded. Even choosing one brand product over another is not being branded. The reason they are branded is so that we can make a distinction and recognize the products we want to buy. "I like this soap, therefor I might like this shampoo" is a far cry from "I like all things Chanel."--or even "I must have all things Chanel whether I like them or not." Surely the latter is (as yet) quite rare?

On Jun.24.2004 at 02:53 PM
Steve Mock’s comment is:

Brand is one of those funny words that is a noun, but has no physical presence. It's so intangible.

So when someone says, "I love brands." What is it they love? I read that as, "I love stuff."

Again, the closest I can come is that a brand is a spirit, a ghost, a no thing.

I really like the graphic design part, but to me brand is just so much voodoo. Almost like a religion they way it's wielded around here.

On Jun.24.2004 at 03:00 PM
debbie millman’s comment is:

>I'm getting hung up on this passage's ambiguity. Could you elaborate a bit?

I think that both Olins and Klein agree that we are living in a branded world. Klein thinks this is dangerous, Olin's doesn't (fundamentally). But they are only assessing what already is--not really providing an answer as to "why" society is in the state that it is. I wrote a bit about this in Print Magazine. It is the "why" that most interests me, or the "how did we get here," not the groaning about or the applauding of the state of things.

>If you and I are having a conversation, in real time, on the grass under the sky, and you are drinking a Starbucks coffee, is that a branded moment?

Well, M...l I wouldn't necessarily think it was a branded moment, but the brand contributed to the moment--as a Starbuck's always makes me feel good. Being there with you was glorious, and would have been glorious with or without the Starbucks, but--here's the kicker: this is exactly what Starbucks would think is a branded moment--from their perspective, that is.

> If I am watching a sports game on TV and there are logos plastering the side-boards, the players are wearing branded sportswear, and the screen is branded with the Network, the local station and Tivo, is it a branded experience--and if so--whose?

It is one giant, overloaded branded experience. Those brands paid for the privilege of participating in that experience--to benefit from the halo of the game, and to essentially, become a part of it.

>I think Culture comes from people, not corporations, and Experience is so multi-faceted that it cannot possibly be owned or "branded."

I respectfully disagree. Here are some perspectives I found from some CEO's, et al: "Phil Knight, founder of Nike announced that “Nike is a sports company, but it’s mission is not to sell shoes, but to “enhance people’s lives through sports and fitness.” Scott Bedbury, Starbuck’s former Vice President of marketing openly recognized that “consumers don’t truly believe that there’s a huge emotional difference between products” which is why brands must establish emotional ties with their customers through the “Starbucks experience.” The people that line up for Starbucks, writes CEO Howard Shultz, aren’t just there for the coffee. “It’s the romance of the coffee experience, the feeling of warmth and community people get in Starbucks stores.”

***

With this wave of brand appreciation has come a new breed of businessmen, people who will proudly inform you that Brand X is not a PRODUCT but a way of life, an attitude, a set of values, a look, an idea. That is certainly better than that Brand X is a power drill, or a hamburger chain, or a pair of jeans, or even a massively successful line of running shoes. I found this about Abercrombie & FItch (though it is dated):

"The most popular brand now is a brand that Fortune magazine recently wrote about. The magazine described some extremely popular kids at a High School in Silver Spring, Maryland. It related how the kids are much like the popular kids of their parents generation. The boys are athletic and good-looking, the girls are perky and good-looking. They have their own cars. They stir envy or hatred in the kids who don’t qualify for their ranks. But unlike their parents generation, these kids aren’t called jocks. The popular kids at this school--and many others around the country are identified by where they shop. At our Maryland High School, they are called the Abercrombie crew. For those that might not be in the know, that is for Abercrombie and Fitch."

***

Now, gang: no matter how much I wanted my lime green Levi’s (as per my author bio, I am not excluding myself here in any way), no one ever referred to me or my friends or my generation for that matter, as the Levi’s crew or referred to the popular kids in my junior high school as the Lacoste gang. It would have seemed absurd. Tell that to Columbine’s “Trench Coat Mafia.”

More stuff on A& F that I found:

"That it does not seem absurd to call popular high school kids the Abercrombie crew is a testament to the shrewd marketing of Michael Jeffries, the CEO of Abercrombie and Fitch. Like every other youth clothing maker, Jeffries tries to convince his consumers his product will make them cool. By hiring the coolest kids----they call them “greeters” at Abercrombie and Fitch---and pay them to have fun, listen to Smash Mouth, to be carefree and breezy and to radiate charm in his stores, he has found a way to package, market and sell popularity. The ultimate aspirational brand. The brand has succeeded in becoming so ingrained in our popular culture that the number one song in the United States a few summers ago featured the line, repeated over and over and over by the very sexy boys band LFO, “I like girls that wear Abercrombie and Fitch.”

So yes, I think that culture can very well be shaped by corporations.

On Jun.24.2004 at 03:25 PM
Tan’s comment is:

>So when someone says, "I love brands." What is it they love? I read that as, "I love stuff."

A brand is also a representation. It can represent a standard (Craftsman), a lifestyle (Urban Outfitters), a set of beliefs (Greenpeace), or a community (AIGA).

It's more than "stuff" to a lot of people.

>I really like the graphic design part, but to me brand is just so much voodoo.

It can be. But don't do it if you don't buy into it.

Doesn't mean it's any less valid 'around here'.

On Jun.24.2004 at 03:33 PM
Schmitty’s comment is:

I saw an ID badge designed by Nike. Of course it was cool, of course it had the swoosh... but the idea of having a brand represent you as a human was a little more than I could bear.

Perhaps you should consider throwing out all your business cards! :)

On Jun.24.2004 at 04:03 PM
bryony’s comment is:

But I don't think I was that unusual. And given the "artsy" nature of the graphic design crowd, I'd bet that many here can relate.

Are we talking about us as consumers? Or about the consumers we help our clients target? (I agree that most of us “artsy” designers might of stood apart and still do from the whole “branding lifestyle”.)

With this wave of brand appreciation has come a new breed of businessmen, people who will proudly inform you that Brand X is not a PRODUCT but a way of life, an attitude, a set of values, a look, an idea.

I am guilty of participating in this every day. Working with Sony Electronics, and it’s vast array of products it is my job to sell everything to everyone. Of course some distinctions apply and some products are targeted to specific age groups and what not, but my job is to sell you Sony as a lifestyle, valuable and enviable, the product(s) that everybody aspires to own.

Again, the closest I can come is that a brand is a spirit, a ghost, a no thing.

If a brand is a no thing, how come it consumes us so much? Why don’t we let go?

On Jun.24.2004 at 04:20 PM
schmitty’s comment is:

Again, the closest I can come is that a brand is a spirit, a ghost, a no thing.

If a brand is a no thing, how come it consumes us so much? Why don’t we let go?

Bryony, have you read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance?

On Jun.24.2004 at 04:22 PM
bryony’s comment is:

Bryony, have you read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance?

No. Should I?

On Jun.24.2004 at 04:42 PM
Casey Hrynkow’s comment is:

Here's a couple of thoughts.

I do believe, as Debbie Millman says, that brands are now shaping the culture in which we live. But I believe they always have. We can substitute the word "movement" (i.e. communism, Nazi-ism, imperialism) for brand. We can substitute the words "global disaster" (i.e. war, black plague, AIDS) for brand and get the same statement.

I believe that we have always feared events and ideas which appear to hold too much power or sway over us. The Romans didn't much like the idea of someone paddling around in his sandals calling himself the "King of Kings". It made them nervous. They feared the proliferation of such an idea. The internet and googling (I love this new verb) has given us access to ideas that we can choose to accept - or not. Brands (in the traditional sense) do the same. Some people choose to worship the brand Nike, while others choose to worship anti-brands like red-dyed denim with red dyed t-shirts, Birkenstocks and dreds. These are also brands, no matter how vehemently their devotees will protest.

I believe in the human spirit. There will always be the bovine crowd that willingly follows. There will also always be a movement afoot to distract the herd from their reverie. Many people can, and do, think. Others refuse to. And there will always be a balance. I think we have no choice but to remember our humanity. We will have momentary lapses that will hurt thousands and often millions. But this is the human condition. I can live with that.

On Jun.24.2004 at 04:47 PM
Schmitty’s comment is:

No. Should I?

I had to read it back in college so it's been a while, but it is written by a college English professor who eventually has a nervous breakdown (don't worry, I'm not inferring anything here) because he can not define "quality".

He chooses two papers written by his students. One he thinks is excellent quality, the other poor. He reads them to his students and askes them to decide which one is better quality. His students agree with him, but when he askes them why, they can't come up with a good justification of their choice, or offer a different reason than anyone else's.

He goes on a X country bike trip with his "plain jane" bike while his friends are on a new BMW. The contrast in costs of the bikes and maintenance during the trip further his obsession for a definition.

Anyway, "quality" is something that we all know when comparing things, but "quality" is defined (DANGER, DANGER Will Robinson!) by our individual values- or is it?

Seems similiar to this conversation regarding Branding.

On Jun.24.2004 at 04:55 PM
Kirsten’s comment is:

in some parts of the population religion has been replaced by brands

Yes, just look at Oprah. People love her. She can do no wrong. She helps a lot of people. People watch her daily...some would say religiously. She even has her own bible, I mean magazine.

I think brands do shape who we are. Somehow I've developed a hatred towards Safeway. I hate all the red in the stores. I hate how bright the lighting is. I don't like how the corporation treats its staff. I feel manipulated by their own Safeway brand products. I feel angry everytime I go by a Safeway. So I choose not to go there and support them. Funny though, as I love Target and they are red, over-lit and a huge corporation, but I like how they connect to people. They seem smart and current. So, this does shape who I am and how I act. I guess this is how we participate, positively or otherwise with a brand. I don't feel that all moments of my day are branded though. Yes, I do buy a coffee at *$ because I love their coffee and refuse to pay the same amount somewhere else for a cup of shit. I don't go there to feel some romantic connection to poor underpaid, overworked coffee pickers in Costa Rica. Does anyone buy into what *$ tries to spoon feed us? Maybe 10 years ago when we believed their story. To me the danger is how huge corporations are advertising to young people. I think many do buy into their brands. I think Guess, Gucci, Sketchers etc. really do affect how they act and how they identify themselves. Our industry does help perpetuate this. I think we all have to keep asking ourselves if we would show our children what we are working on. If you're working on new packaging for Calvin Klein's preteen thong and you'd never let you kids know that you worked on this, then you shouldn't be doing it.

On Jun.24.2004 at 04:57 PM
Schmitty’s comment is:

I think we all have to keep asking ourselves if we would show our children what we are working on. If you're working on new packaging for Calvin Klein's preteen thong and you'd never let you kids know that you worked on this, then you shouldn't be doing it.

My faith in humanity is restored!!!!!!!

On Jun.24.2004 at 05:04 PM
ps’s comment is:

how so? Can you please expand with an example of what you mean here Peter?

sorry in meetings, swamped... will do so tonight.

On Jun.24.2004 at 05:04 PM
Darrel’s comment is:

brand, brand, brand, brand, brand, brand, brand, brand, brand, blah, blah, blah, blah...

(I'm in a mood today...)

On Jun.24.2004 at 05:48 PM
Tan’s comment is:

Can't you guys talk about brands without bringing morality and religion into it?

And enough with this Puritanical, imperialistic, great-white guilt complex. It's condescending.

Costa Ricans and Columbians are fully capable of understanding fair trade policies and NAFTA regulations as much as American corporations like Starbucks. Don't you think international commerce is a wee-bit more complicated than that?

And people around the world all have different sets of values. Don't justify brand values with your own self-righteousness.

(Sorry, I really didn't mean to pick on your comment Kirsten)

On Jun.24.2004 at 06:44 PM
Kirsten’s comment is:

Hey Tan,

I find it very intriguing how similar some brands are to religion. Don't think that's really bringing religion into it.

Of course Costa Ricans are fully capable of understanding fair trade etc. but that doesn't mean it's happening. What I was hinting at was the crazy juxtaposition between what *$ sees as a 'romantic experience' and what's really going on in their company. I used to work for *$ and they used to show us videos of happy third world coffee pickers in bucolic coffee fields. Felt like propeganda to me. Maybe they really are happy. I really don't mean to impose my values on anyone. This is just my experience/view I'm sharing. *$ didn't treat us very well to say the least, so one can only imagine what's going on elsewhere.

On Jun.24.2004 at 07:46 PM
Mr. Jones’s comment is:

...maybe my formative years occurred before we were overtly branded, maybe my memory is bad, maybe I'm self-delusional, but I don't remember this moment...

Brands and advertising have always been around...it is the delivery that has become more invasive and ingenious. Television has gone from entertaining (an hour or so a night) to a mind numbing companion (on all day 24/7). One reason that brands are so popular among kids today is that they watch more television...raised by brands? Have Sunny-D and Pepsi become the Mom and Dad of the 21 Century? Granted television isn’t the only influence but I think it plays a big part in why so many 7 year olds are brand conscious.

That said, I do love the spectacle of brands and branding becuase they are created and exist only to temp us and make us notice them...kind of like hookers actually.

**In no way am I implying that I love hookers because I love brands. I will stop now as I think I have already embarrassed myself.

Interesting topic Debbie.

On Jun.24.2004 at 08:04 PM
ps’s comment is:

tan, when i said brand

brand wars are going on just as religious wars are going on, but at this point they might be fought in different ways.

"wars " might have been too extreme of a term... the difference between war and competition seems to be a blurry one.

coke vs. pepsi., bush vs. kerry. nike vs. adidas, islam vs. christianity, democracy vs. communism. some battles are fought with bombs, others with ads, money, bribes etc.

tan, i don't see the comparison between religion and brands as a negative. but a natural progression. i would think that the more products and brands that are available in society, the less of importance religion has in them.

i believe the products/packaging that stand on our dressers, in our bathrooms, on our desks are similar to religious icons that used to be common in households. they make a statement about what or who we trust, where we want to fit it. they all hold a promise to us.

without it, most of us would probably be out of jobs. but because of the importance of all this "stuff" we have to be careful...

On Jun.24.2004 at 08:31 PM
Armin’s comment is:

> If you're working on new packaging for Calvin Klein's preteen thong and you'd never let you kids know that you worked on this, then you shouldn't be doing it.

> My faith in humanity is restored!!!!!!!

During this conference, Milton Glaser also spoke. He talked about ethics, truthfulness and ambiguity in design and advertising. As is common by now he brought up his 12 Steps on the Graphic Designer's Road to Hell. For the presentation he turned each step into a question, so he asked the audience to raise their hand if they would "do" any of the steps. Question number one was easy: Would you design a package to look bigger on the shelf? 99% of the room raised their hand (the other 1% were too cool to raise theirs). Question number eight was tougher: Would you design a line of T-shirts for a manufacturer that employs child labor? I think nobody raised their hand. The last question, unequivocally ambiguous: Would you design an ad for a product whose frequent use could result in the user's death? There was some mumbling but nobody raised their hand either.

Indeed a nice exercise in public morality. But an addendum that I think would be appropriate for Glaser's chart is: At what price will you say yes to any of the questions? It would work that the deeper you get into the questions the higher your fee would have to be for you take on the project.

Everybody and everything has a price.

Point being that it is easy to ask a bunch of people morally-charged questions and know that they will answer as society expects. But put a price tag on the resulting answer and the face of the game changes.

Cigarretes, alcohol, thongs, rolling SUVs… they have ads, packaging, web sites, etc. so somebody is doing them. Are they going to hell? Probably, but most of us are too anyway.

On Jun.24.2004 at 08:37 PM
Matt’s comment is:

What defines your identity are your morals and values. Where do these sets of ideas come from? At a very basic level they begin to develop via the culture you are surrounded by during those formative years. Naturally, based on your experiences with those set of morals and values, good or bad, they perhaps change as you make your way through your life. And it is these sets of ideas that cause us to make the decisions we make every day. Whether it is how we decide to travel to work that day, or what brand of underwear to buy. And as information flows freely over the perfectly paved information super highway we are exposed to even more experiences and ideas that one might find interesting. Even if you aren't in tune to such a diverse amount of information, chances are you will come across someone who is and they might in fact rub off on you. So our culture is becoming more and more complex by the minute. A postmodern condition, perhaps, where complexity can lead to contradiction and ultimately confusion. But if you ask me, I find it far more interesting as more and more "brands" appear on our mental and commercial landscape. I dont necessarily want or need to understand them all, I just take what interests me and run with it until it fails me. So bring on the "brands" I say. But like Debbie said...be careful.

On Jun.24.2004 at 09:43 PM
Jason’s comment is:

We live in the United States of America. God bless our brands. God bless the people who craft those brands. Seriously, Debbie's closing paragraph should resonate with us all. Let's be critical of what we do, but let's still continue doing it and recognize the value.

Brands are one part of culture, and as designers we perpetuate the visual representation that composes that segment. That's a good thing, I feel. And as designers, what's so bad about creating something that makes people feel good?

I can begin a conversation on the bus with a Chinese man, who has a pair of Nike's he purchased in Thailand. From that point, we can talk about anything else we choose. So what's so terrible about uniting different cultures through brands? Coke, Pepsi, Gap, Apple, IBM, Google, or otherwise?

Afterthought...
Whenever I hear brand, I always think of the cattle with those awful scars on their rumps. Talk about bad typography.
On Jun.24.2004 at 10:32 PM
Rob’s comment is:

The people that line up for Starbucks, writes CEO Howard Shultz, aren’t just there for the coffee. “It’s the romance of the coffee experience, the feeling of warmth and community people get in Starbucks stores.”

Let me start here. The Starbucks I frequent has no warmth, no community. It's a stand in a mall and they make good coffee. Does the fact that I like their coffee make my thoughts and emotions tied to the brand? Has my mind been manipulated by the machinations of the mighty Starbuck's brand and their clever CEO? I would argue that it's still just coffee and it's just better than the coffee at ABP and it happens to be right on my way to work. For me, it's that simple.

I can see Deb's point and while on some levels I agree, and greatly respect her experience and wisdom, I'm not sure I'm totally convinced the my choices, my thinking and my actions are controlled by the brands that I've experienced in my life. Yes, they have an influence but is this influence any greater than the peer pressure that drove my high school friends to adopt the same uniform of Levi's jeans and Izod Lacoste polo shirts, later to be replaced by Ralph Lauren's Polo Shirts. And in bringing up this point, am I reinforcing Deb's points or just showing how are society is wrapped around not just the experiences of brands but the experiences of the social circles we all run in.

(Deb, since I'll hopefully see you in St. Louis, drinks are on me and we can discuss).

brands, by changing the culture in which we participate, evoke a unique composition of sensory perceptions. The extension of any one of these sensory perceptions alters the way we think and act—and the way we perceive the world. When these perceptions change, people change. I contend that brand composition has more impact on our culture than any other medium.

I find that there are so many factors involved in a culture, from past history to religion to politics to social standing, etc. that to give so much credit to brands feels like a little bit of a stretch. Unless of course, we have decided that everything in life is just a 'brand' and nothing is immune from that label. In any case, we are clearly reaching a crossroads, or have already reached, where I agree we need to move with caution and care. Whatever we do with our branding work and our clients' visions, we cannot lose site of our own, and their, responsibilities to society as a whole.

On Jun.24.2004 at 11:16 PM
Jeff G’s comment is:

Last week Tan wrote: We sometimes craft messaging we don’t really believe in.

Why do you do that, Tan? That's not being careful. Nobody is making you do it.

Then yesterday Armin declared: Everybody and everything has a price.

This is only true for people who have no moral anchor. (Or maybe their moral compass was designed by True Brand.)

I consider myself fairly mercenary, but I found both of these statements disturbing. How can you Be Careful in your branding work if you don't have one or two convictions you won't sacrifice for the highest bidder?

On Jun.25.2004 at 05:35 AM
DutchKid’s comment is:

Armin said:

Everybody and everything has a price.

No, no, NO! Do you really believe that? That's disturbing indeed. I agree fully with Jeff G here.

Jason said:

So what's so terrible about uniting different cultures through brands?

Well, so we're drinking the same soft drink, does this unite us in any way? I think not. In fact, I feel that the growing pervasiveness of the brands you're mentioning creates a growing discomfort in the world, especially between America and the rest of the world. I suppose not everyone is ready to succumb to this new religion.

Mind: I'm not saying America is to blame, this is such a large scale phenomenon you can't simply point your finger at anyone. But I don't think it's possible to have a meaningful conversation about brands without talking about morality and religion.

On Jun.25.2004 at 06:23 AM
Darrel’s comment is:

I can begin a conversation on the bus with a Chinese man, who has a pair of Nike's he purchased in Thailand. From that point, we can talk about anything else we choose.

That's the oddest pro-branding pitch I've ever heard.

;o)

I see a lot of comments referring to people 'buying the brand experience'. While that certainly happens, a lot of time it doesn't. A lot of people just buy the product. Many people that buy coffee at starbucks do so because they want a cup a coffee and there's a starbucks on every corner.

Coke vs. Pepsi? Really, few people care. It's cola. They want a cola. Brands are powerful, but I think those of us in the brand-buzz-word field think they are more powerful then they actually are.

This is only true for people who have no moral anchor.

There's a link I need to hunt down of a study that reported that most ad executives lack a sense of morality. Off to google...

I've mentioned this link before:

S

On Jun.25.2004 at 08:26 AM
Darrel’s comment is:

uhh...ignore those last two lines...

On Jun.25.2004 at 08:27 AM
Steve Mock’s comment is:

>Can't you guys talk about brands without bringing morality and religion into it?

Wasn't that the setup? Isn't that what you meant by being careful, Debbie? Morality?

>If a brand is a no thing, how come it consumes us so much? Why don’t we let go?

That's the big mystery, isn't it? Some of us don't want to. Some of us cannot. Some of us do. But in a word: fear.

Very sly choice of Word It for July, by the way.

On Jun.25.2004 at 08:33 AM
Armin’s comment is:

> this is only true for people who have no moral anchor.

> No, no, NO! Do you really believe that? That's disturbing indeed. I agree fully with Jeff G here.

Obviously I don't want to come off as some sort of immoral, money-grubbing, socially-unconcerned designer here, but seriously… moral posturing is easy. None of us here are millionaires and we all wish we could provide more for our families, I can bet that most, not all, of us here would take a job for any product/company on Glaser's 12 points if it logistically benefitted your family's way of life. Would you show your thong comps to your kid? Would you then tell all your friends you did it? Or enter it in design competitions? Or post it on one of our logo smackdowns? Probably not. But that's OK.

How many projects have you done that somehow you don't believe in? How would this be different?

I'm not encouraging this kind of behavior, nor doubting anyone's good intentions but I don't buy for one second that nobody, if the price were right, would not do these kind of jobs. Somebody is going to do it anyway, so why not you?

PS. I just want to say that I really admire everyone's passion in this matter and I'm not one to question what you would do or not do in any case. So I don't mean to offend anyone. Just adding some fuel to the fire.

On Jun.25.2004 at 08:56 AM
ps’s comment is:

one of the results of this open-network of information and revelation is that our character is no longer simply shaped by our families.

this of course can be a great thing. family can still be part of the character shaping, but with all the other options, i think it increases the chances for more open minded, well rounded characters.

Brands, by changing the culture in which we participate, evoke a unique composition of sensory perceptions. The extension of any one of these sensory perceptions alters the way we think and act—and the way we perceive the world. When these perceptions change, people change. I contend that brand composition has more impact on our culture than any other medium.

i think its an amazing interaction between brands and people. brands shape people and people shape brands. both sides seem to have tremendous pull on each other. one would guess only brands that find the right balance between pull and being pulled can be successful.

On Jun.25.2004 at 10:03 AM
Jeff G’s comment is:

Hi, my name is Jeff & I come from a strange world where certain things cannot be bought and honor & integrity are a more important part of our standards of living than comfort & the acqusition of stuff.

Somebody is going to do [these jobs] anyway, so why not you?

Just pause a moment & think about that question. If you don't get several good reasons real fast, run & beg the devil to give you back your soul.

How's that for burning your fuel, Armin?

On Jun.25.2004 at 10:35 AM
Devil’s comment is:

Here you go Armin:

- One soul

- A couple of remorses

- The $20 I owe you from the NBA Finals

- And here's some integrity, not sure who it belonged to but you can have it

On Jun.25.2004 at 10:40 AM
Jeff G’s comment is:

Now for goodness sake, hang onto it this time!

On Jun.25.2004 at 10:43 AM
Darrel’s comment is:

Here's that link:

Moral shortsightedness common in business, research says

Many advertising executives fail to see any ethical implications of their work, and if they do see moral problems, they refuse to talk about them, a University of Texas professor has discovered.
On Jun.25.2004 at 11:36 AM
Schmitty’s comment is:

Point being that it is easy to ask a bunch of people morally-charged questions and know that they will answer as society expects.

Could I be as so humble to also point out what I see as a flaw in Glasier's presentation that effects his results? Armin you eluded to it with the first question-the 1% too cool to raise there hands.

Point is we all want others to think we are moral do-gooders, but the real litmus test is what we do when nobody-especially our industry peers- is looking.

A second thought that I don't neccessarily agree with, but will throw out for debate anyway is:

We are hired by a company to do advertising for other companies. We are not hired to be the moral gauge regarding our client's products/services. Unless you are the owner of your company and have the power to turn clients away that don't meet your moral requirements, shouldn't we just stick to our job regardless of how we feel personally about the client's product/service?

Or go to another agency.

On Jun.25.2004 at 11:56 AM
tim’s comment is:

PS wrote one of the results of this open-network of information and revelation is that our character is no longer simply shaped by our families.

this of course can be a great thing. family can still be part of the character shaping, but with all the other options, i think it increases the chances for more open minded, well rounded characters.

I must respectfully disagree. Part of the lure of branding is the promise to be better than you are, to have the life you want, to be all that you can be. To me this doesn't promote well-roundedness, but the insidious feeling that who I am somehow doesn't "measure up" to an ambiguous ideal.

The "well-paved info highway" doesn't always translate into full and complete information. The godzillion channels on cable/SAT tv are ultimately owned by just a few conglomerates.

Character shaping always comes down to the family. When I'm watching TV with my kids, and an ad comes on that I think goes against the morals I try to live by, and want my children to live by, I will comment on it to show my disapproval of its message. Conversely, I can imagine a situation where Dad tells his kids those ad messages are okay, with implicit or explicit reations to said ads.

On Jun.25.2004 at 12:10 PM
jenny’s comment is:

>I can bet that most, not all, of us here would take a job for any product/company on Glaser's 12 points if it logistically benefitted your family's way of life.

Here's a practical, real life example - I've done some work for a company that produces alcohol. I never even thought about Milton Glaser's "would you design an ad for a product whose frequent use could result in the user's death?" in relationship to that work. Call me lacking in the solid moral compass department. But then, I drink, as do many of the people here judging from various discussions I've read here, and it never even occurred to me to look at that work in that context until yesterday.

I'm guessing its the same with other things, too.

And I think Glaser's done some wine labels, right? And someone's proud of their work - I've seen alcohol labels in design competitions...

On Jun.25.2004 at 12:13 PM
Greg’s comment is:

Honestly, I don't think you can say you wouldn't design for something unless you've been asked to design for it. It's incredibly easy to sit on High Moral Hill and judge, but when you're in the situation, I would imagine the ballgame changes.

I think it's a human failing, to blame the product rather than the user. Sure, if the user is misinformed (not uninformed) by the company, then there's grounds for complaint, but suing McDonalds for eating there and getting fat is ridiculous. I mean, tell me you didn't know fast food is bad for you. And blaming the designer who designed the ads that made you want to eat there for your fatness is even more ludicrous.

That said, from my moral high ground, I'd never want to design for cigarette ads or porn rags, just because at the end of the day I'd feel disgusted from having to look at that stuff all day. But I can't say that I've been asked, so I can't say definitively that I'd say no.

On Jun.25.2004 at 12:44 PM
Tan’s comment is:

>Last week Tan wrote: We sometimes craft messaging we don’t really believe in...Why do you do that, Tan? That's not being careful. Nobody is making you do it.

Jesus. Didn't want to dive further into this crap, but can't avoid it.

What I meant was that no one, I mean no one in this business, is 100% truthful, 100% of the time in their messaging. Clients ask us to varnish the truth, look on the brighter side, not lie — but be aspirational.

As designers, we craft messaging, but we don't fulfill them. That's up to the client. There's always a degree of doubt and skepticism as to whether or not the messaging is achievable or true.

...

And I think there's a difference between applying your own moral values (and religious beliefs) on your own actions, versus imposing morality onto other's buying decisions and actions.

Do you think fashion designers ask if their preteen line is too slutty? Should they censor what you wear based on their morals? Should architects say 'no' to expensive urban developments because there are still millions of homeless in need of more affordable public housing?

I'm not without moral limits. There are lots of things I personally wouldn't work on, for a variety of personal reasons. But like religion, I won't use my profession to impose my own moral decisions on others. It's up to them whether or not they choose to burn in hell, under their own terms.

Like many others have said — don't preach, do.

On Jun.25.2004 at 01:25 PM
Jeff G’s comment is:

Jenny, I would design a wine label & I'd show it to my kids & parents. But now let's imagine (sorry, Greg) that you are asked to redesign the can of a malt liquor. You know it's only reason for existence is to keep poor alcoholics drunk. So what do you say?

No thanks.

or

Dang it! Drunks deserve good design too.

And we could go on & on for hundreds of posts with variations on the situation and get no where. But if you have a few guiding principles in your life that are absolute, then these questionable situations are a lot easier to sort out.

-

Greg, I can honestly say I wouldn't design for something before I have been asked. (Yes, I have been asked, & yes, I did say what I knew I would.) That is one of the benefits of having an absolute anchor in your life.

-

Unless you are the owner of your company and have the power to turn clients away that don't meet your moral requirements, shouldn't we just stick to our job regardless of how we feel personally about the client's product/service?

Or go to another agency.

Or make a respectful appeal where you are. It's not as drastic & it might work. If it does your respect level goes way up.

One of my biggest clients once asked me to inflate my first quote for them so they could get a bigger grant for a project. That's the way the game is played in Wales. I declined. They said fine. Two years later I do all their graphic design, & they've never asked me to do anything questionable since.

-

No more moralizing. I'm off to do the dishes.

On Jun.25.2004 at 01:28 PM
Jeff G’s comment is:

Tan, there is so much in your last comment that needs to be addressed. A couple things that I even agree with, but I really do have to do the dishes. If no one's made my points by the time I get back to SU this weekend, I will have words for you.

On Jun.25.2004 at 01:44 PM
jenny’s comment is:

Jeff,

Admittedly, the price-point ("premium") that the product that I worked on will be sold at, well, its not going to be the alcohol of choice for the bum on the street. Its not even something most people would consider drinking nightly. Its legal, I would drink it, and I was happy to tell my friends about it, so it passed that stink test. And I grant you that would have been very hard pressed to do ads for, say, A&F's "coolie" t-shirts or "cherry-wink-wink" thongs for 10 year olds. Or porn rags.

I've also said no - and admittedly, with some anguish, given the money involved - to certain client requests that didn't pass my stink test. (And in my case, the client found someone else to do the work as requested). So you are right. But then, for various reasons, I'm independent, and I could literally afford to say no it at that time as well.

But at the same time, Armin's inclusion of alcohol in that list gave me pause yesterday. And made me realize how slippery that slope is. I mean, someone designs labels for malt liquor.

On Jun.25.2004 at 02:06 PM
Schmitty’s comment is:

Dang it! Drunks deserve good design too.

Thanks for considering us!

On Jun.25.2004 at 03:27 PM
Michael H’s comment is:

As if on cue...

http://www.apple.com/trailers/independent/the_corporation.html

On Jun.25.2004 at 04:24 PM
tuan’s comment is:

...We are not hired to be the moral gauge regarding our client's products/services... shouldn't we just stick to our job regardless of how we feel personally about the client's product/service?

and so it goes that everyone passes the buck. the designer, the client, the consumer, the printer, the janitor. we are all just doing our jobs.

good times.

On Jun.26.2004 at 03:20 PM
Jeff G’s comment is:

Schmitty, will you be a charter member of my new advocacy group DDDD?

(Drunks Deserve Decent Design)

-

Jenny, The Stink Test. What a great name!

-

Tan, I wrote earlier that I was going to agree with you a bit. Since then I've re-read your post. I apologise for my misstatement. I offer my following arguments in the spirit of robust discussion among intelligent people. (I'm going after what you wrote, not you personally.)

You are well aware of the big conversation in design about how we can make our clients understand design's importance & power and then get them to involve us in the strategic thinking that they do.

You should also be aware that one of the current big conversations in & about business is ethics & morality.

Your reticence to dive "into this crap" could easily be viewed as evidence that your own strategic thinking about business, at least in this one area, is backward & outdated. In fact, when you say, "Clients ask us to varnish the truth, look on the brighter side, not lie — but be aspirational. As designers, we craft messaging, but we don't fulfill them. That's up to the client," you are casting yourself as little more than the loathsome page decorator.

This "crap" is important. It is also completely relevant to Debbie's post. She has asked us to be careful in our branding. If we are going to do that, we ought to talk about what our being careful is based on. It is my contention that it should be based on a few absolute principles and that those principles will enable us to work ethically & also to earn the respect of our clients.

Tan, I think it would also help you to avoid the type of convoluted argument you used in your last post...

...no one in this business, is 100% truthful, 100% of the time in their messaging.

But some of us are trying. It is a worthwhile aim.

Clients ask us

not hold a gun to our heads and demand

to varnish the truth,

Truth + a little lie

look on the brighter side,

We are selling the stuff, so of course we are only going to talk about the good bits, but if the good bits well-communicated aren't enough to sell it then do you actually want that client?

not lie — but be aspirational.

Do you mean, This product/service aspires to be good, so I'll say it is good, or do you mean, This company genuinely aspires to move in a certain direction, so I'm writing the message about that move? The former is bullshit. The latter is an entirely sensible way to move forward.

As designers, we craft messaging, but we don't fulfill them. That's up to the client. There's always a degree of doubt and skepticism as to whether or not the messaging is achievable or true.

Again, I'm not sure if you are referring to a product or a company or a brand. If you are not sure if the messaging is true, why do you not find out before you unleash it on the world in its glossy form?

And I think there's a difference between applying your own moral values (and religious beliefs) on your own actions, versus imposing morality onto other's buying decisions and actions.

The problem is that as a designer the nature of what you do necessarily communicates your morality or lack of to others.

Impose is the wrong choice of word in this context. By refraining from telling lies in branding or selling thongs to eleven year-olds I don't impose anything on anyone. I simply avoid an action that I find unconscionable. The others are free to find someone else to tell them lies or sell them thongs.

Do you think fashion designers ask if their preteen line is too slutty?

Some do. Some don't. The fact that some fashion & graphic designers have a thing about showing off tiny titties adds exactly what to this discussion? (They all should be asking, at least until someone can come up with a convincing argument that the sexualisation of children for any reason is a good idea.)

Should they censor what you wear based on their morals?

Choosing to not produce a product is different than sending out the decency police to raid your wardrobe. Please use your inflammatory buzzwords accurately.

Should architects say 'no' to expensive urban developments because there are still millions of homeless in need of more affordable public housing?

A completely bogus question. That is of course completely up to the architect. To put the architect into the context of this discussion - he should not design an expensive development, throw in two cheap houses, then hire a graphic design studio to put together a brochure that promotes him as a champion of affordable housing.

I'm not without moral limits.

I'm sure you are a very decent guy. I've found that most people in the world are quite decent & have some sense of morality.

There are lots of things I personally wouldn't work on, for a variety of personal reasons.

But

like religion, I won't use my profession to impose my own moral decisions on others. It's up to them whether or not they choose to burn in hell, under their own terms.

Which way are you going to have it? By your own definition anything that you personally won't work on is imposing your morality on others by denying them the opportunity of having that thing with a Tan Le gloss on it. I'm pretty sure that's not what you meant, but in all your wriggling it is what you said

(And why do you keep bringing religion into this?)

Like many others have said — don't preach, do .

You've explained nothing (not that you are in any way required to). You have sidestepped the dangerous, yet important & potentially rewarding opportunity to make a meaningful contribution to a big conversation in the business & design world. And you tried to discount the legitimacy of those that do. Finally, you have ended with a useless platitude. "Preaching" has an important place; it can inspire doing. I believe it is one of the reasons Speak Up exists.

On Jun.26.2004 at 06:25 PM
Tan’s comment is:

hey Jeff,

Taking my response word for word. Impressive.

A few rebuttals if I may.

>The problem is that as a designer the nature of what you do necessarily communicates your morality or lack of to others... I simply avoid an action that I find unconscionable.

You're contradicting yourself a little bit here. What you do as a designer is indeed important. Nothing wrong with making your own moral choices and selectively tailoring your work so you can sleep at night.

But the world isn't black and white. It's grey. And again, I contend that not everyone has the same set of moral and religious values that you do.

You don't really know who I am, and my work isn't a reflection of my individual morals, or lack thereof. For instance, just because you design brochures for United Way, it does not make you a giving person.

>It is my contention that it should be based on a few absolute principles and that those principles will enable us to work ethically & also to earn the respect of our clients.

Based on what? Who's values?

You have the right to proclaim your moral base, but you have no right to dictate or set "guidelines" on what I may choose to design or buy as a consumer.

Get off your high horse.

>...no one in this business, is 100% truthful, 100% of the time in their messaging...But some of us are trying. It is a worthwhile aim.

I'm very happy for you Jeff. Everyone, let's give him a hand on how ethical Jeff is.

It's commendable of you to have such great clients. I guess I'm not as lucky. I've never had a client that readily admits to struggling in their market to customers. I've never had a client that willingly assesses their product in the market, and advertises their shortcomings to competitors. I've never had a client that didn't have some complaints from customers that they wanted advertised on their packaging.

I've never had a client that was that truthful.

>"As designers, we craft messaging, but we don't fulfill them. That's up to the client," you are casting yourself as little more than the loathsome page decorator.

Hitting below the belt a bit, aren't you?

Ok, so I've done a ton of work for biotech clients, including a company that makes a very effective and revolutionary drug for juvenile arthritis.

I helped craft their messaging, talking to their audience about the benefits of the drugs and how it can change people's lives. All truthful as far as I can tell.

But it's up to the pharmaceutical to get the drug through the FDA. It's up to the FDA to set parameters around the distribution and usage. It's up to the healthcare providers to set reimbursements and conditions on prescribing the drug. And lastly, it's up to the thousands of physicians to make it accessible to their patients.

That's what I meant when I said that "I don't fulfill the messaging."

Think about how simplistic your own thinking is first before you slander people.

>Should architects say 'no' to expensive urban developments because there are still millions of homeless in need of more affordable public housing?...A completely bogus question. That is of course completely up to the architect.

It's a completely apt analogy. The fact that you're incapable of understanding it doesn't make it "bogus".

Yes, it's completely up to the architect. Just like branding moral is completely up to the individual designer.

>You have sidestepped the dangerous, yet important & potentially rewarding opportunity to make a meaningful contribution to a big conversation in the business & design world.

I haven't sidestepped anything. I've simply suggested that instead of grandstanding about morals to others — designers should just worry about their own work, try to understand the complicated issues with their own clients, and try to live up to their own standards before preaching it to others.

Do that first, and then have the "big conversation". Anything else is just talk.

On Jun.28.2004 at 12:13 PM
Tan’s comment is:

>The fact that some fashion & graphic designers have a thing about showing off tiny titties adds exactly what to this discussion?

Sorry, one last thing.

For the record, I didn't bring this up. Kirsten originally brought up the "Calvin Klein preteen thong" thing as an example of morally-deplorable design — which is exactly what this discussion is about.

I was just responding to the example. You're the one who took it one bus stop further pal.

On Jun.28.2004 at 12:57 PM
Jeff G’s comment is:

Tan, thank you for your response. I'm going to take the liberty to use your rebuttal as an opportunity to clarify some of my views (and do a little rebutting of my own).

...my work isn't a reflection of my individual morals, or lack thereof.

Perhaps I should expand work to include the way you work. because you are right in that what you do doesn't give a very clear picture, as in your United Way example. Let's use another example.

We would both agree that you worked in a way that was moral for your arthritis drug client. But let's say they fudged the figures on some studies and you found that out. We would probably both agree that crafting their message in that case would be immoral & potentially cost children's lives. That is the type of thing that sprung to my mind 9in general, not about you specifically) when when you wrote about being less than truthful & messaging you don't believe in.

So, it is your work + the way you work that communicates your morality

Now, the Big Conversation & not being a Page Decorator. Let's move from lifesaving drugs to a consumer product. Let's say the company wants you to apply a little varnish to the truth & exaggerate a benefit or two. Here is an opportunity to say, "Look, we are selling to a cynical, jaded public that is constantly bombarded by marketing. If we try to make exaggerated claims the public are going to see through it, and it is going to hurt you in the long run. Why don't we go for something a little more honest."

You could work it the same way with the emotional/lifestyle communications as well.

This is a simplistic example, but you get the idea. Graphic Design in Search of a Conscience also brought up some very interesting thoughts about this.

It's grey.

It's so grey. Almost everything is shades of grey. That's why I think it is so important to have a few absolute guiding principles in your life.

I wrote, "It is my contention that it should be based on a few absolute principles and that those principles will enable us to work ethically & also to earn the respect of our clients."

Then you wrote, "Based on what? Who's values? You have the right to proclaim your moral base, but you have no right to dictate or set "guidelines" on what I may choose to design or buy as a consumer.

Which is why I have been very careful to not dictate any '"guidelines"' or even mention the word. And I am not going to start now. I won't say what your absolutes should be based on, but I think for them to be valuable you should have the sense that they are bigger & more important than you. The reason for this is that you won't find it so easy to change your mind about them in a sticky situation.

Okay, one specfic thing. I've said it beofre anyway. I feel very strongly that truthfulness should be up there at the top. Tan, it was the way you wrote (Notice I said wrote. I'm only going by your word. I'm not judging your actions) so casually wrote about not being truthful that inspired me to jump up on my high horse in the first place.

That's all for now. Tomorrow I shall respond to the less serious things, and I shall attempt to drag out and use my dusty neglected humility.

Jeff

On Jun.28.2004 at 06:27 PM
M Kingsley’s comment is:

Marian writ:

>I think Culture comes from people, not corporations, and Experience is so multi-faceted that it cannot possibly be owned or "branded."

Debbie retort:

>I respectfully disagree.

Funny you should write that Debbie. Even funnier that your response was made up of quotes from other people. I can't determine if you're proving your point or Marian's. Anywho, here's something found in the current issue of NYPress — a review by Kate Crane of Bill Talen's (aka Reverend Billy) new book "What should I do if Reverend Billy is in my store?":

Talen's belief in the power of literature and storytelling is rarely encountered in activist circles. Throughout "What Should I Do", he posits that our culture is constructed on a foundation of stories, but those core cultural myths are increasingly peddled and copyrighted by a few giant corporations: "merchandising vehicles that…never have the qualities of a well-told story, because such a thing would compete with the selling of the products." According to Talen, "A really powerful story is not easily controlled as it passes into the rapt audience. A real story must have in it…the Unknown."

On Jun.29.2004 at 01:40 AM
Jeff G’s comment is:

Good morning.

1. Why do you keep bringing up religion, Tan? I'm still curious.

2. "you are casting yourself as little more than the loathsome page decorator."

"Hitting below the belt a bit, aren't you?"

If you (un)willingly go along with a client's request to lie. That's all you are in that situation. You are bringing nothing to the message but gloss.

Of course there is the more insidious possibility of active collusion with the client in the lie. Then you're not a page decorator, you're an immoral conspiritor.

Note: Please remember that all I have to go on is what you have written. I'm not attacking your work or the way you work. I'm attacking what you wrote.

3. Thanks for clarifying your initial simplistic writing ("I don't fulfill the messaging"). You came across as much more credible this last time.

4. The architect example. The fact that I use a word made popular by Bill & Ted does not make me incapable of understanding. In fact, I put my simple brain into action and had a think about how you architect question could be not bogus.

Here's what I came up with: Perhaps someone in a very coporate part of the design field may think (or I think they have the responsibility to think?) that what they do doesn't really matter, and is in fact completely soulless, so should they chuck it all in and start designing for people and things that "matter".

Is that anywhere near the mark?

Anyway my version was better (and more realistic).

5. I've never had a client that readily admits to struggling in their market to customers. I've never had a client that willingly assesses their product in the market, and advertises their shortcomings to competitors. I've never had a client that didn't have some complaints from customers that they wanted advertised on their packaging.

I've never had a client that was that truthful.

I already wrote this, but you must have missed it the first time: "We are selling the stuff, so of course we are only going to talk about the good bits, but if the good bits well-communicated aren't enough to sell it, then do you actually want that client?"

6. I haven't sidestepped anything. I've simply suggested that instead of grandstanding about morals to others — designers should just worry about their own work, try to understand the complicated issues with their own clients, and try to live up to their own standards before preaching it to others.

Sidestep alert! Sidestep alert!

You kind of imply that I am grandstanding, haven't tried to understand the issues with my own clients, & have come on here to preach BEFORE living up to my own standards.

I'm curious how you know all that, and I would be very grateful if you could let me know when I have lived up to my own standards so that I can start preaching again.

7. pal

I knew we could be friends.

Everyone, let's give [Jeff] a hand

Thank you. You've been lovely.

Sorry, I couldn't find the humility.

On Jun.29.2004 at 05:53 AM
Jeff G’s comment is:

Finally, Tan & everyone, my apologies for being so long-winded & most probably boring.

On Jun.29.2004 at 05:55 AM
george’s comment is:

I find the leap from imposing one's morals on a client to being a "page decorator" to be completely melodramatic. that leap seems to be at the root of this discussion and I think it should be reexamined.

as designers, it is our job (this is a job after all, not a charity or a hobby) to take a message that is given to us and make that message clear and powerful to consumers. in my own experience at least, that message is seldom decided upon by the designer, and I don't believe it should be. we COMMUNICATE the message, not create it...again, this is just my own experience. "page decorator" implies that no real communication has been done, that the designer took the message and slapped it onto a page and drew some pretty pictures in the margins.

If you (un)willingly go along with a client's request to lie. That's all you are in that situation. You are bringing nothing to the message but gloss.

is it our job to verify the facts of everything we're asked to design? I don't understand how the effectiveness of the design work is compromised by the accuracy of the information...they're mutually exclusive, no? as has been said, there IS a huge amount of grey area here, and I'm not suggesting that designers should work without morals and should actively lie and cheat their audiences, just that we should be more realistic about where design begins and ends.

I work quite a bit in Hollywood. admittedly the "message" that's portrayed for a particular film can be slightly askew from what the film is about, or what the director intended it to be about...that's just the nature of the movie business. however, deciding how a film will be sold is NOT my job. I receive the "message" from the studio, and I create effective (I hope) design to communicate that message to consumers. my morals have no problems when a studio decides they want to show more of the star and less of the story...or vice versa...or whatever they decide they want to do to sell a film. would yours? am I lying to the public? or is the studio lying? should I fight more with the studio?

On Jun.29.2004 at 11:26 AM
Tan’s comment is:

>We would probably both agree that crafting their message in that case would be immoral & potentially cost children's lives. That is the type of thing that sprung to my mind (in general, not about you specifically) when when you wrote about being less than truthful & messaging you don't believe in.

Yes, of course that would be immoral. And illegal. I don't think most people would have moral difficulty in deciding what's right and wrong in this instance.

But in my years of experience, nothing is ever this black and white. And unless you're independently wealthy, no designer or design firm has the resources to maintain constant vigilance on all of their client's actions and intents. That's not meant as an excuse, but to explain what I meant by "We develop concepts and brand promises for clients that we’re skeptical they can uphold."

Trusting clients and believing in good intentions is good service. Not all clients are evil. You can't treat people with such disdain. Not if you want clients to trust you back.

>Let's move from lifesaving drugs to a consumer product. Let's say the company wants you to apply a little varnish to the truth & exaggerate a benefit or two.

Again Jeff, your examples are clear and black and white. Of course it's clear what's right and wrong. We're not 10 year olds here.

And no client will tell you outright that something is a lie. Corporate executives aren't that stupid.

More likely is that designers are mostly unaware of the implications of their actions — that they are making small moral decisions without even knowing it. They turn a blind eye or simplify complicated situations.

Perhaps a better plea is for awareness, not just morality.

>wrote about not being truthful

Where/when did I ever write about not being truthful? "Not believing in" something means that you're a skeptic, not a liar. It also refers to being judgemental.

>Why do you keep bringing up religion, Tan? I'm still curious.

I didn't. "Preach" also means — to advocate, especially to urge acceptance of or compliance with.

>The architect example...Is that anywhere near the mark?

Nope, still off Jeff. It means that a high-rise building (work/product) is not a moral indication of that architect. Choosing to create work for a corporation does not make him/her a morally suspect person. Not everything "corporate" is directly responsible for the evils in this world.

>"We are selling the stuff, so of course we are only going to talk about the good bits, but if the good bits well-communicated aren't enough to sell it, then do you actually want that client?"

Sorry Jeff. This makes no sense to me. Lots of good products, with good benefits, and good communications — fail. Lots of bad products, with crappy benefits, and suspect communications — succeed. That's the reality of a free economy. What's your point?

My point was to explain why no one in marketing can be 100% truthful, 100% of the time — that corporations are just being human, not evil.

>Thank you. You've been lovely.

sure Jeff. Anytime buddy.

On Jun.29.2004 at 12:08 PM
Jeff G’s comment is:

My dear, George, let us speak of leaps.

Imposing one's morals on a client is several miles from refusing for the reason of personal conviction to do a project (especially if you are self-employed or the boss) or suggesting a more moral & hopefully more effective means and/or message.

There seems to be a decent amount of confusion between taking a stand on personal conviction (what I'm writing about) & forcing your client to join you (imposition).

What is at the root, at least from my point of view, is the casual disregard for honesty & morality in two posts by Tan & Armin. (Please notice again that I am responding to what was written, not behaviour.)

From that root I grew an argument about the potential for positive input in to the message and/or the means of cmmunicating it by designers.

Leaping? No. Melodrama. Why not?

is it our job to verify the facts of everything we're asked to design?

Leaping again.

I don't understand how the effectiveness of the design work is compromised by the accuracy of the information...they're mutually exclusive, no?

Yes, in the How Does it Look On the Page? sense. Absolutely not in the Good Communication Sense. Go think carefully about what you wrote. Put it in a context other than Hollywood. Tan's biotechs, for instance. Or wayfinding signage.

my morals have no problems when a studio decides they want to show more of the star and less of the story...or vice versa...or whatever they decide they want to do to sell a film. would yours? am I lying to the public? or is the studio lying? should I fight more with the studio?

See, melodrama's fun isn't it. Graphic design, communications design & marketing are not Consumer Reports or aintitcoolnews.com. If they were, I'd go do something that required creativity.

On Jun.29.2004 at 01:06 PM
george’s comment is:

yep, melodrama sure is fun :)

I guess I read too much into your argument Jeff. taking a personal stand against something you find wrong is one thing...using that personal stand as a platform to change the world is another story. when you start "suggesting a more moral message" you begin to tread in an area that goes beyond a personal stand. and the simple fact that we're writing about the subject in a public forum means that it's no longer a personal stand. all that being said, I DO see where you're coming from and again perhaps I took your argument one step too far.

Yes, in the How Does it Look On the Page? sense. Absolutely not in the Good Communication Sense. Go think carefully about what you wrote. Put it in a context other than Hollywood. Tan's biotechs, for instance. Or wayfinding signage.

this I still disagree with. if I were designing signage, would it be my job to verify the accuracy of the signs (or maps, or whatever)? my client tells me the restroom is "over there" so I design a very effective means of telling people where the restroom is. whether the restroom is actually "over there" is irrelevant to the work I've done as a DESIGNER. sure, as a member of the "wayfinding team" I probably should have checked where the restroom was, but that's not part of the design, imho.

same with Tan's biotechs. his client tells him "we want to sell this drug to young people with arthritis. the message should be........" and he goes ahead and designs something (ads, brochures, websites, whatever) that communicates that message to the intended audience. his design and its effectiveness is separate from the accuracy of the message, the potency of the drugs, and the morality of whether young people should take such a drug. again, as a member of society he should probably consider those things, but as a designer they're mostly irrelevant.

On Jun.29.2004 at 01:55 PM
Jeff G’s comment is:

George, I guess I don't draw the limits around design in the same place that you do. That is probably because being a one-man show in the lower eschelons of this field I usually wear all the hats.

Tan, the architect thing. The Evil Corporation that only spews filth across the land angle never occurred to me. I am not at all anti-corporate.

The good things fail thing. My point was: IF IT IS NOT A GOOD PRODUCT, CAN YOU LIVE WITH YOURSELF CRAFTING MESSAGES ABOUT HOW GOOD IT IS? That's all.

I've made all my examples very clear and obvious to try to allow them wider application in the mind of the reader. I'm just trying to plant some good seeds.

You didn't write about not being truthful. My apologies.

Tan, you have already established how good & wonderful my clients are. I have no room to show them disdain.

I could write more, like about how many times you've written religion & religous in this discussion (Plus, you were the first to mention it.), but it's time to go celebrate my eighth anniversary.

The awareness thing. I concur.

On Jun.29.2004 at 02:31 PM
debbie millman’s comment is:

M. Kingsley writ:

>Funny you should write that Debbie. Even funnier that your response was made up of quotes from other people. I can't determine if you're proving your point or Marian's.

Mark--my response--and the quotes re Starbucks, A&F, etc. was part of my attempt to show evidence of "brand" shaping and influencing culture.

Jeff writ:

>The awareness thing. I concur.

Yes, the awareness thing. Yes.

***

(and btw...thanks for a really thoughtful conversation, folks)

On Jun.29.2004 at 09:48 PM
The Ghost of McLuhan’s comment is:

Way to plagiarize Marshall McLuhan.

"Print technology created the public. Electric technology created the mass. The public consists of separate individuals walking around with separate fixed points of view. The new technology demands that we abandon the luxury of this posture, this fragmentary outlook."

-McLuhan, 1967

On Feb.04.2005 at 07:24 PM
debbie millman’s comment is:

huh??? i think McLuhan's influence is clearly indicated, as i mention and credit him in this essay several times. if you feel differently, i apologize. that was certainly not the intention.

On Feb.04.2005 at 09:24 PM
Gunnar Swanson’s comment is:

Death has been rough on Marshall. He’s lost his command of the English language. Most corpses have the good taste to shut up (or at least to direct all of their comments to little boys in Bruce Willis movies.) Plagiarism is, of course, the use of others’ work in a manner that makes it seem to be one’s own, i.e., not giving proper credit. Since Debbie’s second paragraph started out by evoking “1967—a year when many people in this room were not even born [when] Marshall McLuhan described. . .” it is hard to know what ghosty-boy is bugged about.

Sorry. I’m in the middle of writing an article about the ethics and aesthetics of copying so I’m even more pedantic about related terminology and poorly-considered accusations than I usually am.

On Feb.08.2005 at 12:08 PM