Concept! Sell the idea that is bigger than decoration with logos and icons.

It's not just Cahan, it's become a norm now for companies to omit their logo from the front cover of an annual report. You can argue that an annual report is a unique product of investor relations, and therefore, resides in a different space than the rest of the company's marketing materials. In other words, the logo should go on the back cover. The front cover, you continue to argue, can carry the current year's theme, as well as the brand promise.

If that doesn't work, I usually spew off something like "Let's save the logo for the brand signature (back cover) to wrap up the book." And then proceed to show them a bunch of examples of that being done.

Or something like that...you get the idea.

But that's just annuals. For other materials, sometimes it's impossible to hide a bad logo. Running it in one color or a neutral grey helps, but you can't always do it.

But sometimes, having more than one bad logo on a piece (sponsors, partners, etc.) can be good -- cause then you can group them together in the hope that they all cancel each other's ugliness out and become white noise on that page.

We do lots of stuff for MS, and man, there's nothing uglier or obtrusive than the Windows family suite of logos.

At a recent talk by Chip Kidd, he said that he took a bad logo and repeated it four times in a row, once each in C, M, Y, and K. The idea was that it looks like a printing test, and also that if something is repeated it becomes invisible. (I'm paraphrasing - but you get the idea.)

Oh, one other slightly devious trick:

When we present comps, they are slightly reduced to fit an 11x17 with bleed. If the client asks why their logo is so small -- we tell them that it's because the comp is not actual size. But when we finally release the file, we scale the logo down so that the actual size matches the reduced size from the comps. By then, the client has gotten used to seeing it small, and never notices.

hehehe.

tan,

i applaud your deviant behavior. hate to think what you'd do if the client didn't pay on time.

This one time, the client gave me a really ugly logo.

I "accidently (wink, wink)" dropped it and it shattered all over the place. They were quite upset, but in the end, I was able to make a newer, better one. I also made it out of titanium so the next designer couldn't pull the same trick as I did.

Tan! you are very very smart. I am going to start doing that. i do agree also that sponsor logos are horrible but can cancel each other out.

I agree with Tan. Of the 15 or so annual reports I have done, only once have I had no choice but to put the logo on the front cover. I just don't include it in the comp. If they ask where it is, I say on the back cover, as a sign-off. If they really persist, I say the boldness of their particular logo (don't the worst ones all seem to be screaming for attention?) distracts the viewer from the cover messaging. And with short attention spans these days you want to make sure your message is clearly communicated.

But ARs can get treated differently than marketing materials with respect to logos - due to short shelf life, specific audiences, and messaging based on one years' events. In all fairness, I see the point in having to include a logo on company/product marketing materials. The main point is to reinforce the brand and its recognizability. (Well, that and actually sell stuff.) And even if it's visually unattractive, people will see the logo and recognize it. I guess if the name of the company is prominent enough on the cover, it could achieve the same thing. I have been known to faux-watermark it, though.

>In all fairness, I see the point in having to include a logo on company/product marketing materials.

Of course. So let's say there is no way of getting out of that one, how do you treat the logo? One color? Watermarked (like Patrick)? Shove-it-in-their-face-4-color-extra-big placement?

I try to do it black, or if I have a colored background I like 'em logos in white. As small as I can go and at the bottom. Usually centered so it doesn't ask for much attention.

> i applaud your deviant behavior.

> I am going to start doing that.

I'm glad I could help in the corruption of your design morals.

Next lesson -- "Clients and Dumb Farm Animals: Closer Than You Think."

> So let's say there is no way of getting out..., how do you treat the logo?

If it's a corporate folder or press kit -- instead of printing the logo, I'll size it big, and blind emboss it. A blind varnish works well too. I once blind varnished a client's ugly logo HUGE so that it wrapped around the front and back cover. But I made the mistake of varnishing uncoated paper -- it took 4 hits on press with a white tinted varnish. Not recommended.

btw, always better to put dull varnish on glossy paper rather than the opposite.

>Next lesson -- "Clients and Dumb Farm Animals: Closer Than You Think."

yes, but the Farm Animals rarely complain if you go home to your real wife before dawn.

Speaking of client-provided logos, how many times — after getting a dinky lo-res web-grabbed logo in your email — have you asked for a hi-res TIF or JPG and just gotten that same dinky logo just blown up? It trips me up! Or you ask for an EPS and just get that same dinky ass logo saved as an EPS. This is so common when dealing with sponsors. I think we should bring back the term "Camera Ready Art."

I know it's all about educating the client and shit, but admit it — it's funny as hell. Annoying when you need to release files to the printer, but funny at the bar with your snobyy designer friends.

You know what's also funny/maddening?

Have you ever gotten an eps logo file from a client, and the damn thing was built with 50 shapes, masks, gradient, layers, etc. all to make a simple, ugly mark?

And you want it to reverse or turn it to white, but you have to spend an hour cleaning up the file for use. Ungroup, convert to paths, unmask, delete points, smooth curves, aaaarrrgghhh!

Worse when you know it came from another design firm.

I hate that.

Hahahaa... yeah. It sucks. I actually enjoy getting logos when I know they are coming from another design firm, some people have such low quality control it's amazing. If I sent a logo to some other firm I would make it so that in 1 click (2 at the most) they would be able to change the color. Or just fuck with them and leave everything locked in Illustrator. Maybe a separate layer for each letter of the logo.

> have you asked for a hi-res TIF or JPG and just gotten that same dinky logo just blown up?

that's one thing that web designers (myself included part-time) have easy -- you can pull logos off old websites so easily.

----

sorry, one last pet peeve.

If I see another large, screened back logo on a design piece -- I'm going to scream. You know what I'm talking about.

New designers out there, pay attention. Don't do it. If you have a piece in your portfolio with a screened back logo as a background -- throw it out. Especially if it's a letterhead. It is is the most trite, cliché, out-of-good-idea trick universally used by designers.

You will only get hired by shitty firms by showing that kind of logo application.

>If I see another large, screened back logo on a design piece -- I'm going to scream. You know what I'm talking about. Especially if it's a letterhead.

A M E N. That is one of the most common practices in Mexico. My teachers encouraged that shit. I can't believe you still see that in Design annuals. Have you ever done it Tan? I managed to never ever succumb to it, perhaps that's why I got such low grades at college.

after getting a dinky lo-res web-grabbed logo in your email

Yet another valid excuse for not putting the logo on the cover??

My old firm did tons of IPO presentations (back in the day) in PowerPoint. Each client would supply like 20 logos of customers/vendors/partners/etc pulled from websites and say they couldn't/wouldn't ask their respective owners for original art. So we'd spend hours and hours redrawing them. From scratch. Thankfully, PowerPoint presentations were never my job.

Re: Armin's complaint about low res logos -

One of my regular clients is a fashion boutique, so often I need to promote an upcoming designer event (YSL, Pucci, Hermes, etc.) and I have the EXACT same problem, every time I request the logo, I get the logo pulled off of their website. Drives me insane. It's to the point now where I no longer ask for the logo, I google for an EPS, if I don't find one, I end up matching it with existing type and drawing the difference, then reduce the logo size to hide the miniscule differences. This has never failed me to date. I actually had Loris Azzaro request the EPS that I drew so they could use it in promotional stuff since they only have JPG's. Crazy stuff.

If I see another large, screened back logo on a design piece -- I'm going to scream. You know what I'm talking about.

awwww. come on. what if it has a swoosh? and is in a bright color? wouldn't that make for a nice dramatic layout? Really really big. Right where the letter text will go. Customers won't be able to keep their eyes off it. "I can almost feel the page spinning" they'll say.

Here's a rather successful trick to talk some clients out of enlarging their bad logo on a page: Pull out their corporate standards manual and claim that "Enlarging the logo in this application would grievously violate the guidelines established in your corporate standards guide." Then you hold up your hands apologetically, as if to imply "I'd love to help you out, my good friend, but there's really nothing we can do here."

Works like a champ.

When we present comps, they are slightly reduced to fit an 11x17 with bleed. If the client asks why their logo is so small -- we tell them that it's because the comp is not actual size. But when we finally release the file, we scale the logo down so that the actual size matches the reduced size from the comps. By then, the client has gotten used to seeing it small, and never notices.

This may prove more valuable then gold one day. What a great trick!

I had the wrost nightmare.. . a logo done in the mid 80's for a high-end software company. I made it solid blue and forced it to look like part of a barcode. Then I made the rest of the piece so colorful that it went unnoticed there on the back page.

> Have you ever done it Tan?

I wanna say that I smoked, but never inhaled.

But alas, I'll admit that I made many mistakes as a youth, including screening back logos. Hey, I never had the benefit of an older, wiser, good looking professional to tell me that it was wrong. I had to learn by experience.

this might be already well known but if you're having difficulty looking for .eps versions of logos try checking logotypes.ru ... oddly enough the files are kinda wanky when opening from a mac (go figure) but lovely from PCs.

as far as ugly logos, i feel it is my personal duty to rid the world of them. :) or at least hide them. i did a wedding website where i hid it in the contact page... the client was totally fine with it and understood why it couldn't go anywhere else. she actually is my best client ever. that's kinda weird to say but she just let me do my thing and put her total trust in my opinion.

i'm definitely bookmarking this for future reference. tan is a genius.

>tan is a genius.

Whoohoooooho, easy there priya, have you seen Tan's logos as dictators? (can't find the link Tan, indulge us) That's the work of a madman, not a genius.

Hmmph...madman indeed. It just takes someone of great talent, beauty, and intelligence to recognize the sublime genius in others. Don't listen to Armin's plebeian rants, Priya. Just bookmark away...

And here, observe for yourself and tell me if this is madness or genius.

Hi, all-

Been lurking for a while, but on this subject I have to offer up a Mea Culpa.

See, I used to work for this software company, right? And they knew they needed an art director, but they didn't know exactly why. Was it because the packaging looked like it was done by the Big Box of Art people? Maybe.

But anyhow, some genuis there decided we needed a new logo. Had to drop that "dot com" from our name, right? The only requirements (and I can already hear you groaning) were that it was "medium blue" and have "some cool arcs, like zones.com". Arcs. Read that as SWOOSHES.

So anyhow, along with this came the new cabinet. At this point I was getting desparate, so yes, I did submit a comp with JUST the swooshes screened back. In my defense, I offer that I was being somewhat facetious... I knew my days were numbered and I didn't exactly want to leave my best work with the boors.

FWIW, I never did it before or since.

-R

tan: sometimes madness is indeed genius. those logo-dictator associations are insanely hilarious.

FWIW, I never did it before or since.

Feels good to confess, right? Since it was a one-time offense, I think a light punishment of cutting 5 logos from rubylith will do. ;-)

rubylith. heh!

This has nothing to do with the placement of an ugly logo, but have you ever had to scan an ugly logo because the client did not have the original files? Well, I have. What a nightmare!

I usually do what Armin does. Make the logo as small as I can and then make it black or white depending on the background and then place it in the bottom.

I like Tan's idea about telling the client that the logo is not the actual size and them forgeting about it. Tan "you are a ginious" I will try your strategy!

I'm not in design or advertising or whatever, I'm a jazz musician. I'm not even sure how I stumbled onto this site but this is the funniest shit I have ever found online.

> I'm a jazz musician.

Welcome Mike. I'm glad you "chimed" in. Ok, I'll stop with the puns there.

Some of the stuff here is definitely a little zany. Hope you keep coming back.

What instrument do you play?

Thanks Tan, I put this site on my favorites and have already found alot of good and useful info by linking off of it. I especially like Gigposters.com. I am a tenor sax player out of Athens, Ga. Lately, I have been giving alot of thought to creating and implementing a better marketing plan trying to incorporate "branding" and a recognizable visual uniqueness [where's the spellcheck?]Basically, trying to add that 3rd meal every few days.Much good info here and a very human quality not always found elsewhere.Sometimes it takes an outsider to help folks appreciate what they've got but y'all got a great thing going here.

>If I see another large, screened back logo on a design piece -- I'm going to scream. You know what I'm talking about. Especially if it's a letterhead.

I am guilty.

It was eating me alive.

Feels so good to confess.

I'll be able to sleep tonight.

And maybe finally stop doing that screenback thing.

Judging by the date of the last entry, I'm getting in on this discussion a little late. Concerning the web lores logos: I actually have other design firms coming to me to redraw those things. The worst part is trying to ID fonts. The time it takes can make a logo redraw too costly. I found a site that ID's fonts over 90% of the time for free. www.myfonts.com or just type in the browser whatthefont. They will explain the rest. Hope this helps someone.