Granted I haven't looked at it yet, I'm sure it's great, but I'm always iffy about things like this being "sponsored." Isn't this the same as Nike using guerrilla marketing tatics like Anarchists to be "hip?"

There is no trace at all of the sponsors on the site. You wouldn't even know who it was sponsored by if I hadn't told you.

I think the site is awful. I've only looked at a few sections of it and grew tired of reading the Bierut and St John conversation simply because I didn't know how long it would go on for unless I chose to print it out. It makes that layout a little redundant if that is actually the best way to read it online too.

The content looks like it might be very good - I just hope they respond to some usability feedback and make it easier to use/read or play with.

I hope the Janou Patker sponsorship means that they've got some extra cash lying around due to all positions for designers they've filled.

I agree with Damien about the unknown-article-length. Scrollbars 101.

Horrible Navigation

is it just me or is the title supposed to read:

I.D. and A. (like T&A)?

and going to Janou Paktar for reportage is like going to MacDonald's for cullinary advice.

IDANDA:

I Didn't Appreciate Neville's Design Artistry

or

It's Design! (A Needless Design Assembly)

or

Is Dis All Not Dezine? Anybody??

Hate to join the campaign of negativity, but they lost me on the main page. I just don't have the time to enjoy how inscrutably creative someone is, when what I'm looking for is information. And if I have to look at the page and try to figure out how to work it, I'm gone in a second.

IDANDA

Illegible Dithers Are Nullifying Decent Aesthetics

Just a question -- how many people can find time to read an online zine? I certainly don't yet. Can't take it with you to the john. Can't read a paragraph during commercials while watching tv. Can't clip letters to assemble anonymous ransom note.

Armin I understand, but I barely have time to read the onscreen cable guide, let alone decrypt a design webzine like Inanda.

"Just a question -- how many people can find time to read an online zine? I certainly don't yet. Can't take it with you to the john. Can't read a paragraph during commercials while watching tv. Can't clip letters to assemble anonymous ransom note."

now THAT's comedy!

as an aside, i wonder what a designer's ransom note would look like? Art Chantry or more like INT rubdowns from old Harper's?

Granted, the usability sucks, but a little credit to them? No? Ok, that's what I thought.

checked it-thought it was straightforward, nice bit of space, didn't blow me away, easy to use, i'll peek back to see what else is up. credit given.

how many people can find time to read an online zine? I certainly don't yet. Can't take it with you to the john.

You need yourself a Palm Pilot or web-phone. ;o)

Granted, the usability sucks, but a little credit to them? No? Ok, that's what I thought.

It looks to be good content. I just can't get to it.

I liked it.

Truth be told, I read your comments before taking a look so I was forewarned about the limited sight view of the entire "Beirut vs. St. John" article. Once I opened the article in a new window to print, however, I had control over the length of the article.

I have to disagree with the "horrible navigation" comment and the general dissing on the usability (excluding the more specific, trapped article in a little window). The site is actually pretty simple and if you explore for a moment with your mouse, you'll quickly realize where to go.

If a site looks to have some relevant or intriguing content, aren't you willing to give it just a little time to learn the ins and outs? I only preach a little patience, people.

Patience is good, but should one have to be patient online? The nature of the medium is its speed. Who wants to have to spend time learning how find/read content -- intriguing or not -- when you're pulling up pages by modem at home?

More so than any other group, I betcha most designers are patient and give extra complex Web pages a fair shake. If a designer doesn't want to dig deeper into a Web site because it's hard to use, that's probably a very good sign that the average Joe may not even give it half that chance.

Thank goodness the target audience for this zine is designers.

If a site looks to have some relevant or intriguing content, aren't you willing to give it just a little time to learn the ins and outs? I only preach a little patience, people.

No. I think thats an excuse for poorly thought out navigation. Its an online magazine - why make it slightly harder for me to read it than necessary, even if it is in the pursuit of 'having some fun exploring'.

I know we design and develop for a target audience, and in this case the assumption might have been we'd all figure it out, but it only serves to continue the excess of sites that will surely make me go blind or RSI.

If a site looks to have some relevant or intriguing content, aren't you willing to give it just a little time to learn the ins and outs?

Nope. (Though Joy's comments regarding target audience are certainly valid.)

I'm actually sitting in a web accessibility course as I post this, so maybe I'm a little biased at the moment.

I'm actually sitting in a web accessibility course as I post this, so maybe I'm a little biased at the moment.

Funniest. Post. Ever.

Really!

I've too have been known to decry certain web sites for their awful size, design, and usability. So, I suppose that I was just playing devil's advocate regarding this web site.

That said, did you all really have problems with the navigation on this site? What, in particular, gave you trouble? It seems that everyone found the articles that were referred to above.

The menu, which was limited to about 8 choices, is constructed of simple rollovers and is then repeated on each subsequent page. So, once you've explored the menu on the first page, aren't you pretty much set to easily navigate to your hearts content?

By the way, I am specifically referring to the overall navigation of this site. I've already acknowledged the problem with the articles and scrollbars, or lack thereof.

i like the site. nice and clean.

granted, a little trouble scrolling

ID AND Advertising...?

> i wonder what a designer's ransom note would look like? Art Chantry or more like INT rubdowns from old Harper's?

If I was a designer-master criminal, I'd want to be as unidentifiable as possible. So instead of crafting a unique ransom note, I'd probably use my "design powers" (for you graham+sam) to produce a totally untrackable, undesigned, unpatterned, untasteful note that would absolutely stump the FBI.

In other words, I'd use Microsoft Powerpoint.

The FBI would never catch me.

My ransom note would look something like this.

Tan, how you manage to run a design firm I will never know.

I would have done my ransom note in Apple's Keynote... but then again, the FBI would only have to look in 5% of the population... nah, too easy for them.

Tan: I seriously hope your use of quote marks to declare inches was purely in jest.

Dammit, I couldn't figure out how to turn off smart quotes in Powerpoint!

I tried -- you have to believe me.

You people have entirely too much time on your hands...and I am jealous.

tan, that's amazing! you just made me laugh while trying to eat a tuna fish sandwich. it's not a pretty sight here.

warn a guy before you use your powers for evil.

> You people have entirely too much time on your hands

Sam, you gotta be kidding. Your Rant postings are at least 500 words per response. I don't know how you and Armin do it. It'd freaking take me all day. Hell, it takes me hours just to decrypt Graham's stream-of-consciousness Brit speak.

You guys do realize it's just a template bkgd in Powerpoint, right? It took me like 2 minutes to make and post. Yes, I admit the shame -- I know how to use Powerpoint.

Eric, sorry to have laid waste to your Starkist. Couldn't resist, man..

Patience is good, but should one have to be patient online? The nature of the medium is its speed. Who wants to have to spend time learning how find/read content -- intriguing or not -- when you're pulling up pages by modem at home?

Forgive me for the long quote, I just want to make one point (before talking more about the IDandA site). The nature of the medium (the interweb) may seem to be speed, but I think thats more a secondary consideration to the actual, primary nature of said medium, which is an ungodly complexity. I find websites that are complexly engaging to be be more rewarding than sites i can simply breeze through, although there are exceptions. Online shopping? should be really simple and fast (though anyone who has browsed online for hours will tell you that speed isn't necessarily the nature of the game). This blog, for example - it has functionality out the ass in order to make the expereince easier for the user, including clear navigation, a search field, category archives, etc - but that may well serve to make the aggressively linked content of the site more complex and in return more engaging for those who have time to look at it. User interface can sometimes be likewise appropriately manipulated to slow the user down and make them pay a little bit more attention. i'm all for the current revival of pretty strict modernism, but the rococo aesthetic of (say) David Carson, is not without merit.

Ha, sort of longwinded. Sorry! The only thing I have to say about IDandA really is that I respect anyone out there who's willing to try new concepts in navigational bars, they're always my least favorite part of a site to design because they so often look the same. IDandA's approach is sort of wiggy, but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on that part of their site, at least.

Seeing as how everyone here seems to be modernists in regards to web page design, I'm going to take a shot at it.

Sure, clear, easily accessible information can be nice. But not all the time.

I don't think a zine is really a place where a modernist design should be applied. Sure, a corporate website, but a zine? Come on.

It seems that modernism has become synonymous with being lazy. If you can't find the "information" right away (by the way, it's literature, not "information" - when I think of information I think of annual reports) then it's not worth looking at. Back to my.... whatever it is you people do.

I tried -- you have to believe me.

We'll let it slide.

Just this once.

You people have entirely too much time on your hands

Oh no...I still have to sit in my cubicle for 40 hours a week. I may not *do* anything in that cubicle, but I gotta sit there.

Dammit. What happened to the 'future' where robots were going to do everything for us?

Ugh.

And Tan, no need to defend for having time on your hands...when I get time on my hands, I wear it around proudly. "Look at me! I'm bucking the system! I am doing NOTHING!"

interweb

What's an interweb?

I find websites that are complexly engaging to be be more rewarding than sites i can simply breeze through

There's a time for 'engaging' interfaces, but a majority of people a majority of the time are online to get something accomplished. Yes, I could make an amazing flashy animated interface for an ATM, but, you know what? I just want my damn $20. As long as the design for the web site is user-task focused, things are fine. If the user-task is to hang around and enjoy the complexities of an interface, then THAT is the time to have fun with the UI. (and, Ian, I realize I'm really just repeating what you said...I do agree, there are times to use new ideas and a Zine targetted at Graphic Designers certainly is an appropriate time to play).

An luumpo, not sure what you mean by 'modernist web design'. Do you mean 'functional web design'? The term modernism, to me at least, simply means a break from past styles, and tends to refocus on form over function, adding only minor decorative elements.

It seems that modernism has become synonymous with being lazy.

Hardly! If you are referring to sites that refrain form excessive decoration and instead focus on usability, then they often much more difficult to pull off succesfully.

It's not that hard to put up wallpaper. It's a bit harder to build the actual walls.

If you can't find the "information" right away...then it's not worth looking at.

As many have said, there are always exceptions. It really depends on what the focus of your site is. Most of the time, it's to either disseminate content to a user group, or to get the user group to interact with the site/company (for instance, to purchase something). In cases like that, you really don't want to waste a user's time by 'creatively encouraging them to explore the UI'.

I recently tried to look up some ticket prices for a show at a local casino. Went to the site and got to wait for the 'engaging' flash site to load. Waiting, waiting...loaded! Click on SHOWS. Waiting, waiting, waiting...loaded! Wait for the 'engaging' animation to come in...ok, fuck this. I'm out of here.

I eventually sent an email to them and got a response from the marketing director with some lame 'we are a casino and need to express the pizazz of the casino experience through our web site to best target our audience!'. *sigh*

That doesn't mean an interface can't both be easy to use and visually engaging, just don't trump the easy-to-use factor under the guise of making something more engaging.

That doesn't mean an interface can't both be easy to use and visually engaging, just don't trump the easy-to-use factor under the guise of making something more engaging.

Unless, of course, the sole reason for the site is to force the user to engage in the content through exploration. (Wanted to make sure I threw in the exception there...)

Darrel, let me get this straight -- you actually wanted to buy a ticket to see a show at a casino?

Dude.

I concur: Dude.

you actually wanted to buy a ticket to see a show at a casino?

Hey, I saw *the* Kenny Rogers at a very fine show at the casino.

Ok, it was really hokey. But it was Kenny Rogers! Can't knock Kenny.

Actually, I don't remember what tickets we were trying to get or who they were for. The 'experience' I had with the site made me quickly forget. ;o)

Rant is Rant, Tan. It's like a part-time job at this point. It's all posted on the weekend.

But speaking of PowerPoint, did y'all know that all the David Rees stuff (Get Your War On, etc) is designed in PowerPoint? It's true.

> decrypt Graham's stream-of-consciousness Brit speak.

btw, this isn't a knock on you Graham. I love reading your postings and think they're bloody brilliant.

see, I'm down with Brit jive.

Darrel-

Modernism = a specific style of design championed mostly by designers in the early 20th century, such as Tschicold and the Bauhaus. Later expanded upon by the Swiss. They loved sans-serifs and prized clarity and minimalism over almost everything.

I think you confused it for contemporary.

And I agree, when you are looking for things that primarily have to do with numbers, i.e. stock prices and concert information, yes, modernist ideals are great.

But when you're reading something that is composed of mostly creative work, is modernism the best choice? Probably not.

What's an interweb?

ha, sorry, i use this term for the internet/www so often i sometimes forget that it's slang.

Yes, I could make an amazing flashy animated interface for an ATM, but, you know what? I just want my damn $20.

since no one seemed to really violently disagree with me, i'll let my previous comment stand alone and take this oppurtunity to make one further point about usability. Does anyone else remember when ATMs let us take out cash in lower denominations than twenties? I mean, i'm barely out of my teens and I remember that. It was great! But now, for "our own convenience" usually the only bills we can get are twenties. To what degree is this usability and to what degree is it limitation? It certainly makes it easier to stock the machines, I have no doubt. It even makes the machine's output simpler, and as a standard its definitely pervasive. No matter what ATM I use I expect my cash in twenties. But I WISH I could still get fives somewhere.

I think that also relates to the internet (interweb). More options often means more confusion. Sometimes, though (in the case of IDandA and ATMs) I'd rather the options.

Psst... bank tellers can give you all the fives you want. :)

> bank tellers can give you all the fives you want.

And deal with real people? Are you crazy woman?

At least ATMs don't give you pennies.

Ian, in relation to your last point, though, we all probably agree (in general) that more options can nice. But sometimes straight-forward is good too. It all depends on the users, as stated earlier on this thread.

When it comes to IDandA, there are those of us who plan to read the zine leisurely and therefore don't mind a little creative navigation and there are those of us who are just looking to get the info and leave. IDandA, in creating its site, has chosen to focus on the former as its target audience. You win some, you lose some.

Yes, loca loca loca am I.

But when you're reading something that is composed of mostly creative work, is modernism the best choice? Probably not.

Depends on how important the 'reading' part of that would be. :o)

ha, sorry, i use this term for the internet/www so often i sometimes forget that it's slang.

I figured as much. But, since the web is a subset of the internet, why not just use 'internet'? (Yea, I'm splitting hairs here...)

why not just use 'internet'? (Yea, I'm splitting hairs here...)

This is true. However, of all the other things the internet can be used for, people use the www the most. Yet people still call it the internet. Which isn't exactly true.

I also like interweb because it makes you sound like one of those stupid confused people. Isn't mocking people fun?

> interweb

Heck, I'm gonna start calling it the world wide internet.

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