Rebecca,

I hear you. I just think that one’s got to choose her battles or you end up loosing lots of time and energy pointlessly. One thing is the role of women in society, power, politics, family, etc, which is a very important subject and one where my feelings are in tune with yours and a different thing is trying to bring that battle over here at Speak Up. Really, talking about design should have very little to do with whether we are men, women, black, white, tall or short.

We are the only ones to blame if we are vastly outnumbered by male posters since it’s not a fair reflection of what’s going on in the design world. The reasons, I don’t know. Like it’s been said in the "stop being sheep" thread it’s probably many things: for some it will be the aggressiveness, for others lack of time...I’m curious to hear more opinions.

However, like I’ve mentioned on the other thread I must stress that I do not feel misrepresented on Speak Up, far from it. There are quite a few people here whose design and/or human sensibilities are similar to mine and others with whom I tend to disagree more, but that’s the great thing about this place: that everybody has the opportunity to say what they think.

Wow. Complicated issue, Rebecca. I was concerned that the Sheepy thread segued into a discussion about gender, not because it is not important (of course it is) but because, as you mentioned, Armin and I made a truly concerted effort to include women in the publication. Perhaps it seems that we didn't try hard enough, but I do believe we did, as Bryony aptly described.

I have worked in the graphic design business for almost twenty years. Being a woman in this business, (as I have written about before) I avidly tracked the careers of Emily Oberman, Nancye Green, Gael Towey, Paula Scher, Cheryl Heller, Ann Willoughby and so many others. Women have made up so much of the tapestry of modern design, and influenced many designers, regardless of gender.

Yet , there seems to be a concern that there is a lack of women here on Speak Up and as Sam pointed just pointed out, (also in the Sheepy discussion) there seems to be a tone of “machismo.”

If you look back at history, (to quote my dear friend and role model Cheryl Swanson of Toniq) and analyze human history, the public sphere has traditionally been male and the private sphere has been female. It is just in the last thirty years or so (in this country) that women have entered the public sphere in a big way. We're smart enough to be here and, economically, it seems as if we want to and need to be here. Cheryl see waves every five years that the workplace is getting less gender-based. But perhaps it is more gender-based

here right now. Why is that? Well, Armin started the site, and he is a man. It seems that the first few authors here to join him were men. I believe that was just a coincidence. But then Rebecca came in, and Joy, then me and now a big time woman, Marian Bantjes. I think we are already starting to see a subtle shift in the balance of perspective. I can't guarantee that I am going to be more oriented to the female perspective, or that the other women will be more "feminist" in their point-of-view. But, as females, we will likely be, well, female.

So let's wait and see what happens in the coming months. In the meantime, I think we have had some good representation with the threads on Margo Chase (right at the beginning of SU, I might add), Paula Scher, the slogging of me in the AIGA: Sold Out thread (where I tried not to take any crap, whether it be male or female dished--and it was actually both), and the "All the Ladies in the House" discussion (which I am happy to see resurrected). As far as interviews with female designers: Rebecca, you are right on. I hope to interview Brenda Laurel (if she is willing) and I would love to get Cheryl Swanson on the record for SU as well. Then there's Emily Oberman and Ann Willoughby and Tsia Carson and Lynda Decker and Noreen Morioka and so on and so on. So let's make it happen and show the world what we ladies are doing, what we are made of and where we are going. How does that sound?

Now as far as this "macho" tone is concerned--I believe that this is something that many of the women here contribute too, and I like it. There is a very strong bullshit meter on SU, and I think that the female authors like you, Marian, and posters like Nancy Mazzei, Ginny, Sarah B, Bryony and others have the balls and the desire to say what we feel and believe--and it has nothing, nothing to do with our gender, and shouldn't be! We are who we are and I think it is important we lead by example. That is the principle I have always lived by. My limitations are only my own, I do not believe that I have any less opportunities than anyone else because of my gender. If I don't succeed or can't break through any "glass ceiling" it is my own fault. Society may have had a structure to it in years past, but we are changing that every day and, as far as I am concerned, we will be the only ones that own, define and articulate our personal and professional destinies.

#1 - Lack of time. (*Also see, "Rebecky")

#2 - Lack of interest in a topic.

#3 - Lack of one-liners.

Whether or not these reasons can be associated with other women as things we all feel, I doubt. But when I post less frequently, those are my primary reasons why.

#1 If I do have spare time to spend on Speak Up, I usually am drawn to either working on a new post, Open Space, or a submission for Word Its. Also, unless it's really slow in my office, I have probably 10 minutes a day for Speak Up. Most of this time is spent skimming the content just to keep abreast of what is being discussed. And, well, lurking over and seeing what new and fun things posters have on their personal sites.*

What can I say, I really enjoy Rebecca's almost daily diatribes (www.rebecky.com) on her personal life and design stuff because I am more interested in the "human" side of the graphic design process than the theorectical -- which leads to my next reason...

#2 I could give a shit about half the fucking discussions. Sorry, I said it. I am not into branding, so discussions that start with "Company X changed their logo. It sucks. Discuss." bore me because identities aren't my bread and butter. Plus, these threads often seem to turn into endless ego blow-jobs for the posters dissing the work. My dirty little secret is that I come to Speak Up first to kick back and have fun with like-minded peeps, second to learn something.

#3 Often when I go to post, I start these massive little responses that, once I'm in rereading mode, I realize have been more astutely made by someone else. So I usually will trash it and say, "Fuck it."

So those are my peasly measly reasons for being a spotty poster. Most of the male posters are aggressive, and this at first for me also was intimidating. Having been around a while, though, I'm learning when they're just blowing their mouths off and are full of hot air (Thanks to Debbie and Rebeceaa for usually calling 'em out on it) or snarling for the sake of snarling. I hope other women who lurk or post less frequently but are turned off by the tone come to find this out for themselves too and join in when the time permits and when the topics entice them.

I have to say, I don't really feel qualified, being a man, to keep posting on this topic, but I find it very interesting, being married to a woman designer and being friends with women designers. Also, due to the lack of women getting involved with these discussions, I'm afraid this discussion will die.

I certainly don't feel that men out number women in the graphic design industry. Especially in branding and marketing. I don't have any numbers to support this, but when I attend AIGA events and the like, there seems to be an equal amount of both.

Perhaps we could understand this better if we knew what positions most women hold in design agencies. Maybe more women work in advertising or corporate environments, and are these areas less interested in the dialog that SpeakUp offers? Maybe women do not feel as empowered by design as men do, and see it more as a just a job, not a life style?

Bryony reported that she's talked to several women who feel intimidated by the aggressive tone of the discussions

I think Bryony may be on to something with this theory. Are men not more interested in power? Are they not more competitive professionally? Are women more likely to shy away from confrontation? Are the role of leaders and thinkers more socially acceptable for men? I like to think these are not gender specific traits, but while social stereotypes are not fair and do not apply to everyone, they usually reflect the majority. I hate that and hope that isn't the case.

Here's another theory. I think men seem more likely to "nerd out" when it comes to these little subcultural cult cliques. I know we're professionals, but it's not that much different than pop culture fanaticism when taken to these extremes. I'm not saying that there are no nerdy women, I know a few, but most women don't seem to absorb themselves so much with their profession that they want to discuss it with everyone with a pulse. I don't know if that's because women are more concerned with image and being cool or not? Maybe more women will get involved as SpeakUp becomes more popular within the mainstream of our profession?

Or perhaps women are less likely to dedicate so much time and energy to a career, because they're too busy filling traditional roles of mothers and home makers? Men are expected to be career oriented, but we have classifications for women like "career woman" or "stay-at-home mom." While there are more and more career women, men still out number women professionally in the long term. Is graphic design mostly a young woman's game? Maybe that's why men out number women in design dialogue, they don't stick around long enough to really get into the issues?

These are just ideas, not necessarily anything I believe. Anybody else have some insights?

these threads often seem to turn into endless ego blow-jobs for the posters dissing the work.

I agree Joy Olivia. Do you think this turns women off from getting involved in discussions?

I don't think we should poor water on the fire, but maybe men are being too over-zealous and scaring women away. Chill out dudes.

I agree with alot of what Joy Olivia said.

A) not a lot of time.

B) because of A, usually someone else posts a point that I wanted to make earlier and I don't want to be redundant.

Part of me wants to be flip and just make a blanketed statement that the ladies in our community are just working far too hard at work to spend time at SU to post. haha! I don't know if that's true or not, but as a woman, it makes me smile :)

I try to come to SU as much as possible. Sometimes I skim, sometimes I stay at work late just to read up on some of the more interesting subjects/posts. I am not connected to the web at home because I like to leave work at work and I know that if I was connected, I would take work home with me all the time (but I digress). So perhaps if I was connected at home, I would post more often.

I have to admit, I love SU. It reminds me of my university days when my fellow peers and I would discuss eachothers artwork at length. I think that's very important in any creative field. And I feel fortunate to have this kind of discourse back in my life. And although I may not post as often as I and other SU "members" (what do we call ourselves?) would like, I am reaping the benefits from this site, regardless.

I personally don't feel a gender bias in SU. Is it apparent that there are more male posters/bloggers than female? Yes. But it never really bothered me all that much. I'm not easily intimidated, so I am not scared off by the overall "machismo" tones in SU. When individuals start puffing out their chests, I mostly laugh and move on.

Are there gender bias's in our field? I think there are and that should be it's own discussion (maybe someone can volunteer to write about this). But for now, I'm trying to be true to the discussion at hand.

I'm more in agreement with Joy. Sometimes, the topics don't interest me, the guys beat me to saying what I wanted to say, and yes, time.

Maybe I'm living in a bubble, but I never really thought too much about the gender issue because I don't like to think of it as an "issue." It's more of a personal thing. Some people are just more aggressive communicators than others -- and it also depends on the topic and situation. That's gender-independent.

Maybe it's because I also surround myself with strong, assertive women that I don't really "notice" or I'll say it -- even care. My best girl friends include engineers and computer science people (both very rare for their field). When I talk to them about their field of work, they do acknowledge the ratio between men to women is rather large, but they hardly seem to care, either. :P It's all about being good about what you do, and your own individuality -- not about your gender. And maybe because me and my friends have a dash of tomboy in all of us. ;-) Can you talk video games with a guy and not glaze over? I can! Hehehe...

At any rate, at school there were a larger amount of women in it -- but we always hear about the men. And all our teachers, except the drawing teacher, were men.

I think women in general just need to be more assertive in what they want in discussion, in life and in their careers. Then, only then, would there be a sense of balance in things.

But sometimes, I just don't say anything 'cause I don't have anything to say. :)

I'm a "lady", and I am indeed in the house. I have been reading for a while now, but have only commented on one post (about starting your own business). Why?

1. I feel supremely under-qualified compared to the others in this forum. I'm not a graphic designer by trade. I enjoy reading a GD's perspective, but I don't feel qualified to comment.

2. I run my own business and I am very very busy. I'll catch up on several days at once, at which point anything I had to say has already been said many times.

I also re-read my comments several times and manage to convince myself not to bother posting it. This time, I didn't succeed.

Sam, I'm hijacking your previous post because I think it's great. From the "Stop Being Sheep" thread:

"What a knotty problem. The thing about sexism, like racism (and we could be having that discussion as well--it's even less talked about in design and yet it's perhaps an even bigger problem in society)--the thing about sexism is, just because there's no institutional policy of exclusion and/or intimidation doesn't mean people don't feel it. In other words, no there's no sign on the door of Speak Up saying "Dudes preferred" or "Ladies' comments politely accepted but..."--and yet there can still be a tone about the comments we all make that creates an atmosphere that is less inviting rather than more inviting. It's all a question of degrees anyway, not policy.

A case in point: lately (the last 2-3 months) I read a strong tone of "I'm going to say what I think and you all can blast me if you want but I'm going to say it anyway even if I'm wrong." This is maybe what Marian refers to as the "tough crowd" aspect. This attitude is starting to sink in as the ethos of Speak Up--that may be too grand a statement but it may come as a badge of distinction to some (and I don't mean Armin). This attitude (tone, ethos, etc), frankly, is off-putting to me for a whole host of reasons, but in relation to this topic I want only to point out that it comes off as blatantly macho. I can think of no other word for it. I can only imagine how much more so it would sound to a woman attuned to such tones.

I don't think macho here has to refer only to men. But it's a tone of aggression and swagger ("even though I may be wrong"!!) that I can very easily imagine keeping lots of lurkers from contributing. Now some may say that if lurkers are intimidated, they don't have anything to say or they don't want it bad enough (whatever "it" may be) and it's on their shoulders to speak up and if not too bad.

And I say that is too bad."

I suggest people interested in this subject go there to read Armin's and other's responses—but it would be great if the conversation could be continued here for the sake of archiving sanity. Woe to the person who searches for this subject in two months and finds seven posts, only to miss the real action next door.

Some people are just more aggressive communicators than others -- and it also depends on the topic and situation. That's gender-independent.

Good point. I think everyone agrees that design, as a topic, is not gender specific. Neither are time restraints by the way. So it seems that it has come down to one issue:

Men are communicating aggressively on SpeakUp, and it's scarin' the ladies, and probably some other men too.

Well that's no surprise. I think it's unfortunate though. I hate to see the meat heads ruin it for those who probably have something very intelligent to say. I think what I have learned, and it's not SpeakUp's fault, is that as democratic and inclusive as they may seem, on-line design discussion isn't perfect and can't tell the whole story.

Now if we could only get our women to work for us, so us men can stay home and eat bon bons and do our spiel on SpeakUp all day. It's very time consuming being a SpeakUp man you know.

P.S. Thanks to Sam for writing such a thoughtful post.

Also, thanks to Debbie for being so typically positive about everything.

Also, thanks to Joy for throwing down. You're a champ.

Also, thanks to the people who don't usually post but did so for this thread. I can't tell you how valuable it is to hear "I like Speak Up but just don't have time," or "People beat me to the punch." That stuff counts. Thank you.

For me it is three reasons (also)

#1 - time, I usually chime in during my breaks at work, and once in a while in the evening.

#2 - What I think or would like to say has already been said - There are so... many fast writers here that once i Have formulated a nice intellegent thought - someone has already said it - in way or another.

#3 - Lack of knowledge - Sometimes I have something to say, sometimes I dont - I am "newcomer" to design, graduated in 2002, and though I am 26 and should know more about the design world - I just dont. I havent had to the experiences or built up the knowledge and know-who to make comments that I feel I could truly defend - for me, if I am going to state something and take an opinion - I want to make sure I can fight my own fight!

That is why I LOVE SpeakUp - I get the chance to listen and learn from others, to ask questions and once in a while state my mind. It is a GREAT forum for discourse and I am so glad I found it!

An observation if I may:

many of us agreeed with Joy Olivia - and said that we usually do not say anything that had already been said! But many of us did just that here... :)

Sarah -- me too. Graduated, er, this year. ;-) But I don't go around saying that. I add my little bits here and there when it's relevant, but stop short of mentioning my lack of "expertise" so as not to be judged.

Sometimes it makes me feel "inferior" and stops me from saying anything because I don't feel qualified enough to comment. Like Mark Twain said, "It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

Not that I think I'm stupid, or I don't have anything to bring to the table, or I haven't done anything concrete, just maybe in a year or two, I'd feel more comfortable being in the ring after winning a few fights (it's come to boxing analogies now... i'm trying so hard not be feminine! BAH!) ;-)

>I add my little bits here and there when it's relevant, but stop short of mentioning my lack of "expertise" so as not to be judged.

>Sometimes it makes me feel "inferior" and stops me from saying anything because I don't feel qualified enough to comment.

Some of my favorite quotes:

It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.

G. H. Hardy (1877 - 1947)

I happen to feel that the degree of a person's intelligence is directly reflected by the number of conflicting attitudes she can bring to bear on the same topic.

Lisa Alther, Kinflicks, 1975

Ladies: I would say go for it. We want to hear you.

Hi. I'm here. I post. Why? Because I'm an opinionated bitch-of-a-bitch and I can't stop myself. (Is that what a "big time woman" is, Debbie? I'm not sure I want to explore that too closely.) But I'm kindof obsessive by nature.

This whole thing about not posting because someone already said it "better" ... I dunno. I really like to hear a weight of opinion, even if it's just "what Bryony said." And also, sometimes I post things that are not exactly ... uhh ... what everyone else is saying. And sometimes I'm not even sure I'm right, but I'll post it anyway and ... nothing. It's like I didn't even say it, and I wonder "Was that just really stupid? Was it too radical? Boring? What?" but IF people are in agreement, it would be kinda nice to hear that sometimes. I'm sure there's lots of other posters that feel this way--sometimes when you spend the half hour getting your post just right and you think it's really good, it's so nice to have other people say, "Yeah, I was thinking that too."

yeah, I was thinking that too ;)

(just for marian)

My limitations are only my own, I do not believe that I have any less opportunities than anyone else because of my gender. If I don't succeed or can't break through any "glass ceiling" it is my own fault.

Debbie, this is a magnificently empowered statement. And what you say basically applies to any limitation that anyone might feel. For example it applies to me and how I bill clients--is it their fault I don't charge more? No, it's my own. Etc.

But let me put this to you: as president of a major branding firm with major clients, you're playing in the NBA--hell, you're starting on the all-star team. From your point of view, it might seem like the only limitations you face--or the only ones you accept-- are your own, but you can't very well say to everyone else, "If you're not playing in the NBA, it's your own fault." You lead by example amazingly well, and not just for women. But what are the realistic expectations that people here have for change on Speak Up (to refer back to Rebecca's probelm #1 in her intro to this topic)? What does this change look like and how is it different from what we have now?

Aaron, I disagree with your summary "Men are communicating aggressively on SpeakUp, and it's scarin' the ladies, and probably some other men too."

Maybe better to put it this way: people talk too much shit and don't even know it.

Thanks for the cross-ref, rebecca.

My limitations are only my own, I do not believe that I have any less opportunities than anyone else because of my gender. If I don't succeed or can't break through any "glass ceiling" it is my own fault.

I'm going to be a sheep and just reiterate what Sam just said--I really like this comment, I've been writing things like this for a (pro-bono) project I'm working on right now all day long, and I had been wondering if they were relevant. Its just good to see the attitude echoed here, on a subject that's on the surface different from what I'm doing, but fundamentally very similar.

Anyway.

If people are scared by what's said on this site, they shouldn't come here, and they shouldn't read it. No one here can control how one reacts to the statements others make, nor should they be accountable for it. This is a pretty safe environment, and there's nothing I can think of right now that would be "too extreme."

Debbie, I recognize in your statement a schism that I've noticed a lot when very successful women address this topic: on the one hand you acknowledge the existence of a glass ceiling, but on the other you insist that your limitations are your own (not socially imposed). I've often wondered if the split springs from an aversion to acknowledging your status as a "special" woman (i.e., "If I can do it anybody can do it, because I am just a regular person"). The irony is that I feel like it ends up reinforcing that status—because when very successful women like you claim that they've never suffered because of gender bias, those women who have been less fortunate in their experiences with sexism are more likely to internalize the problem rather than fighting back (i.e. "My bad experience with gender bias must have been my own fault, because Debbie Millman is a regular person like me and it didn't happen to her"). Kind of a clunky way of saying it, but you see what I mean?

I volunteer for an organization that has experienced similar trends with gender--not enough women voicing their opinion at meetings, not enough women in leadership [author?] roles, even though the gender breakdown on staff is roughly 50:50, if not leaning towards the ladies.

We actually formed a 'gender commission' a few years ago to study why there were more women on staff, but only men in leadership positions, or only men speaking up at meetings. We got into some of the gender issues & stereotypes brought up here: men are agressive/louder, the organization was started by men & is still a boy's club, the staff is an oligarchy & the ruling class are men. I agree with what a lot of people have said [wink] that I don't post because someone has said it more eloquently, or I'm tired. I guess it goes without saying those things apply cross-gender. What I'm getting at is that identifying these issues are useful up to a point, but that it ultimately comes down to how we respond, what we can do today to make gender less of a issue--or deal with that perception, if it's ultimately determined that perception is the issue/problem is the real problem.

On staff, we made an active push to restructure the organizations, so that there were more opportunities for anyone to apply for and get into leadership positions. Women [& men] with strong personalities aggressively recruited women for leadership positions and executive board membership. Last year's exec. board was 4 women and one man. The gender breakdown is something like three to two this year--or 4:2, F:M.

Our staff is reaching the point where gender isn't [or at least shouldn't be] the issue. There are enough leadership positions, and enough forums so that anyone who wants to lead, speak up, or just lurk can do so. We've tried to address the perception of the "boy's club" at meetings by having more people of both genders present, so that the attention is spread around.

For Speak Up, I think this thread and others like it are a step in the right direction insofar that they shed light on the issue. Some of the nature of the issues are just happenstance. As a public forum, Speak Up is like a volunteer organization. When you're dealing with volunteers, sometimes you have to work with the people you have. If you want to be more diverse, you need to actively recruit people who aren't like you--be this gender, economic level, whatever. As this place gets more press, we'll see more types of people. In the meantime, I'd suggest that everyone recommend threads to the ladies [and gentlemen] in your life who might have an interest in what's said, or who might have something to say.

Not just graphic designers, either. [winkwink]

I'm kind of with Dana, I guess: I lurk because I'm interested in design, but I don't actually do very much of it at my job. What little design I do do is not very, well, design-y. I'm not trained as a designer; I just somehow ended up doing a lot of book interiors.

And I don't often have time to read the discussions. Like, I just skimmed this one, which probably shows.

I wore my SU T-shirt this weekend, though, if that counts.

My bad experience with gender bias must have been my own fault, because Debbie Millman is a regular person like me and it didn't happen to her"). Kind of a clunky way of saying it, but you see what I mean?

Without wanting to sound patronizing: Oy. Big-time Oy.

Not sure what Oy means?

Bradley said If people are scared by what's said on this site, they shouldn't come here, and they shouldn't read it. No one here can control how one reacts to the statements others make, nor should they be accountable for it.

Bradley, I think the point is to work to grow Speak Up and expand its appeal, rather than just stick with a relatively small portion of like-minded designers. And I think the idea is for those already participating to do so from within.

As for controlling other people's reactions, like I said to Armin, isn't this the whole freaking job of a professional communicator? Just because this is writing and not lay-out doesn't change anything. Think, man, think!!

>Because when very successful women like you claim that they've never suffered because of gender bias, those women who have been less fortunate in their experiences with sexism are more likely to internalize the problem rather than fighting back (i.e. "My bad experience with gender bias must have been my own fault, because Debbie Millman is a regular person like me and it didn't happen to her").

>But let me put this to you: as president of a major branding firm with major clients, you're playing in the NBA--hell, you're starting on the all-star team. From your point of view, it might seem like the only limitations you face--or the only ones you accept-- are your own, but you can't very well say to everyone else, "If you're not playing in the NBA, it's your own fault."

>Oy.

Rebecca, please let me clarify something—I don’t think that I have said that I have never suffered because of gender bias. I actually have. What I meant was that I would not let it stop me. I have actually had to fight back. It has been a while since it occurred, and it occurred more than once, but I have to say that it made me more determined than ever. I will not let adversity stop me, I never have, and I hopefully never will. (Is this where "I am woman, hear me roar" starts playing?)

While I do believe (strongly) in what I posted, it does not mean has been easy. Sam, I appreciate your sentiments, and I am flattered that you think the way that you do, but I have had to work (damn hard) for every position I have attained and every client that I have won. I am more steadfast and dogged than naturally gifted, so while I like the thought of being on an all-star team, if I am there (and that is a big IF, in my book) it is only because I work at it every day. Perhaps it has been harder because I am a woman and the branding business has primarily been run by men. Though, happily, that too is changing. I wrote a piece on this in the May issue of GDUSA. But I am not entirely sure that it was harder because of my gender, I find that everything is hard! Work is hard. Love is hard. Life is hard. It is hard for men and hard for women. But all that is hard (for me) seems to be worth it and I keep fighting for what I want. So, though no one has asked, the advice I would give you is the following:

--if you want something from someone, ask for it. Hardly anyone gives it away without a request.

--if you are afraid or scared, do it anyway. Most everyone is afraid and scared, but you actually decide if you are going to let it stop you.

--if you wait til you are feeling more secure or less inferior about yourself before doing something, do not hold your breath. I feel insecure and inferior every day but I still want to accomplish things and get things done.

--work hard. Keep at it. Very little in life worth anything is easy. Get over it. There is something to be said about "if at first you don’t succeed."

--ask yourself if you are operating out of fear or courage. Respond accordingly.

Alright, enough with the inspirationals. The only thing I want to leave you with is this: all of the above works if you are a man or a woman. Yes, in our society there may have been a glass ceiling and maybe there still is one. But it is thinner and weaker and more malleable than ever before.

And lastly: trends show that men and women operate differently on the web. Men surf more and play more. This may take a while.

As for controlling other people's reactions, like I said to Armin, isn't this the whole freaking job of a professional communicator? Just because this is writing and not lay-out doesn't change anything. Think, man, think!!

I strongly disagree with this point--communications cannot, will not, and should not force people to think certain, specific things. The best you can hope to do, logically, is get them to THINK ABOUT things. And hopefully remember them.

For instance, you've got me thinking about the possibility that SU might be a bit too caustic. However, I do not believe it to be.

SU won't be worth much of anything if everyone shares the same opinions; but I can't say I'm particularly interested in digging someone else's opinion out of them if they aren't willing to put it here themselves. I don't believe this is what you are suggesting; but for whatever reason I'm stating my case.

I think the fact that threads frequently exceed 40-50 comments demonstrates that there's a healthy discussion going on here. Many of the names are quite, quite familiar. But if someone comes here, day after day, not posting but thinking about it...my sympathy is limited if they feel no one's listening. They must speak first.

That's the name of the site, right? "SPEAK UP"?

> I think the point is to work to grow Speak Up and expand its appeal, rather than just stick with a relatively small portion of like-minded designers. And I think the idea is for those already participating to do so from within.

Just a quick note. Sam -- this is good advice, but I have to say that of all posters, you can be one of the most doggedly passionate and aggressive poster yourself. You may not write and project your opinions the way I do, or Bradley does, but you get a full head of steam just like everyone else on this site.

Hell, I've avoided threads where I've sensed that you're rolling up your proverbial sleeves. Like this thread, for instance.

But that's why I love reading your posts -- not because of your timidness.

So hello kettle, I'm pot(ts). Sorry, couldn't resist.

Ok, so maybe SU's audience is narrow and the subject matter and tone of posters are a little daunting to the general public. Well maybe, just maybe, that's why it works.

Ok, back to the shadows I go.

So hello kettle, I'm pot(ts). Sorry, couldn't resist.

I CAST THEE OUT!

Interesting topic...

The reason that I enjoy speak up is because the focus of the site is design and everything related to design. To be honest, I never find myself thinking...

"Interesting comment from a man."

"Interesting comment from a woman."

It is kind of funny that this topic would come up in such an anonymous medium.

> I don’t think that I have said that I have never suffered because of gender bias. I actually have. What I meant was that I would not let it stop me.

Now that's what I'm talking about! Debbie, have you fully embraced your status as feminist role model?

> Yes, in our society there may have been a glass ceiling and maybe there still is one. But it is thinner and weaker and more malleable than ever before.

In my opinion the existence of a glass ceiling is not open to debate, but I'll buy the part about it being weaker than ever. Especially when you consider the efforts of organizations like Ben Schicker's. Dude, where do you work? Enlightenment.com?

Ben's post actually made me wonder (and this goes to your point about the internet, Debbie) if part of the problem is that more men than women are reading Speak Up. If that's the case, which wouldn't surprise me, then attracting a more diverse readership seems like a big step in the right direction.

If I had to apply that lesson to the conversations in the last couple of days I'd encourage people to be more disciplined when posting comments. That doesn't mean throwing softballs or turning off emotion. The first post in this thread, by Beatriz, is a perfect example: she firmly and respectfully disagrees with me without getting combative, dismissive, or smart-alecky.

It's not a question of creating a safe space for the shy to speak; it's about creating a sane space where smart people take the time to develop reasoned arguments because they know others will listen and respond in kind, instead of (as happens here with depressing regularity) bulldozing over it with rhetoric or shutting it down with a "whatever." I'm not worried that those people will get their feelings hurt; I'm worried that they'll dismiss Speak Up as populated by a bunch of macho jerks and take their brilliant insights elsewhere.

P.S. Hey India, nice to see a fellow book designer posting!

This is an interesting conversation. I haven't spoken up, solely been lurking, until I get a better hang of the dynamics here. But I wanted to share some interesting info I've come across in my work lately...

In a recent rebranding project I worked on for a large women's organization, we did focus groups and discussion groups on both coasts and a major mid-west city. The difference between women's perception of "feminism", "women's issues" and in general, what challenges women face, are drastically different between low income women and mid/high income women. Mid/high income women believe much of what we've seen posted here: my world is what I make it. Only I set my limitations. But the reality for low income women is extremely different and harsh: low income women have to deal with things others would never deal with because they have no other choice. And the amount of low income women that are also women of color, means it's a tough world out there for a lot of women.

I share this with you really just because I found it to be fascinating and painful. The schism between age groups and income when it comes to a woman's opportunity couldn't be much larger.

I'm glad to have found this site, and am even more glad there's a post to all the ladies. Thanks for the encouragement to start posting, I just may if I can find the time!!!

girl here. late in the game. sometimes i post, but i'm a busy bee and just startin' out in this design game. i must work more so i have things to post about. i love this site and i love design. thank you ladies and gents for all of the thoughtful comments. i love readin' em

I'm going to use this topic to springboard into something else, although I guess I might be totally disrespecting the subject matter at hand too...if I am, forgive me.

The issue I wanted to talk about was how we as communications professionals talk to male & female audiences, and the sort of stereotypes that exist. I guess things to consider would be color palettes, typefaces, tone, style, paper, that sort of thing. In addition to the nature of the message.

From an agency perspective, its really easy to lose sight of the details that make for good design because pretty much all anyone cares about is "the message" and for whatever reason many of them think that some of the above elements do not play a role in that.

We're currently developing a campaign for a major sports team franchise, and the audience is about 50/50 male-female. After looking at the nature of this team, the fan's and the city's relationship to it, we created a pretty aggressive message and an appropriately aggressive look. There was much fear internally that it would "alienate" women because the words and design were "too harsh." Conversely, another team created a campaign that was...very Field of Dreams, let's say. It was "sentimental," and thus thought to be appealing to women. I was ordered to "get in touch with my feminine side" and calm the damn thing down so as not to scare away women.

So I did. I guess what we discovered though, was that about some things--gender actually doesn't matter. Most people, men and women, didn't care at all for the "tame" version, so we ditched it and went with the original. And that time, most women who saw each option gravitated towards the "harsh" direction and blanched at the "sentimental" direction.

This is but a small, relatively harmless example of what happens all the time around the country in the offices of design firms, PR firms, and advertising agencies. Usually its worse. Usually, we talk about men as being hard-drinkin' dudes who hit on the first size 6 they see, drive big tough trucks, and get flustered at anything resembling family or relationships. The opposite is typically applied to women. These are not deep truths, these are perceptions of the world as we imagine it to be.

And I think its ludicrous to assume that women and men always think a certain way because they happen to be a man or a woman. Your attention span, attitude, and preference for cars and beers have nothing to do with your sex. And thank God--someone earlier had mentioned something about how it was possible that the hyper-aggressive tone of SU might "scare away" women. NO. Remember that age-old stereotype of how an aggressive man is always praised but an aggressive woman is called a bitch? Well...that attitude is the same fucking thing in different clothes. I think stereotypes never die because people, someway somehow, keep them alive...and that's unfortunate. I KNOW that comment wasn't made with any ill-intent, but it just goes to show how drilled in certain notions are, no matter how irrelevant or wrong.

Sorry for deviating. But this stuff has been on my mind for quite awhile now.

my 2 cents.

i for one, like about speak up that it does not seem to intend to be politically correct. i love that it just seems to "be." anyone will be heard. anyone can speak up. and since it is a fairly anonymous forum. nobodies and the design celebs get to voice their opinions alike. and in my opinion, i think they are being treated as equals.

interesting how this discussion seemed to develop. as if some of the usual suspects did not want to interfere and comment early on. self-censorship probably.

i for one had a stupid comment ready that "men simply know better" but i felt it was inappropriate in this specific discussion and it probably is, but am quite certain that a bunch of others had some sarcastic comments ready as well.

for me, all goes, as long as there is substance. being a guy, do i value a man's voice more, or a woman's, or an east coaster or west coaster, european, american? (and let me tell you, reading and posting from l.a. i did observe that speak up seems east coast heavy...) whooooo cares... as long as there is substance.

i have done a lot of thinking about my career-path and what i should be adding to my "mix" given that i think the design world is going through some serious shifts. i asked a bunch of people in our industry for advice and their take. i asked people that have an opinion, that have a brain, and that are willing to use it and speak up, and that are willing to share. and thats how i experience our field. and i kind of look at speak up as an important contributor to that field. its the one forum that has none of the old-school or big names attached to it that both intimitate and intrigue. its not aiga or another old and bloated institution. at this point we all can shape it, by speaking up, listening and responding. and i think the best thing that could happen if it stays as this substance filled- unguided dialogue.

(unless there is an agenda that will brain-wash us all)

i think it would be a mistake trying to force a formula of "correctness" on a free forum as this. as long as we speak up -- and listen to each other, i think we are in for a continued treat. no matter of who we are. will it be still as fresh in a year or two? i thnk that will be the bigger challenge.

and holy shit, do i disagree with some of the opinions in this group, but thats the beauty of it.

ps

Tan, believe I have heard them all--the Sam I Am's, the Potts and Pans, the Potts and Hams--I should've started collecting nickels a long time ago!

For a while it seemed possible to outline the debate here along the lines of those who sense a gender issue (to put it as neutrally as possible) and those who argue there should be no such issue on Speak Up if not in design in general. Things have developed beyond that point of simplification, but I have to say I would like it too if there were no such issue as gender-bias--hell, I'd love it if we were living in a truly enlightened society. I'd even love it if I simply believed we were even though we weren't. But where I live these things still exist. Saying a problem shouldn't be a problem doesn't make it go away and more important, it doesn't address causes. And causes--ie, the words we choose--are the heart of the matter. Anyway, I've devolved into platitudes, which lead nowhere. Better to reread Debbie's post.

Tan, I want to respond to your comments, but can I do so without making this about me? I hope so. I'd like to try, briefly.

My reaction to the news that I'm aggressive is--it concerns me. I have always tried to choose language that is high-minded rather than threatening and I've always thought I erred way too far in the direction of high-minded (or meta- or abstract or just plain vague etc). I can sort of see how this can be a form of aggression. Or at least I'm trying to so that I can tone it down. I would never want to excuse myself that it's "just the way I am" and too bad if it bothers someone else--that to me is a cop-out.

Bottom line is, it's a question of language. Language is really the only tool we're all wielding here. Language is what creates tone. I wouldn't want anyone to confuse passion with aggressiveness and think that I meant passion when I said aggressiveness. The passion of this site is not at all part of this gender issue we're been discussing. That's the best I can do to make this general again.

The best you can hope to do, logically, is get them to THINK ABOUT things.

Quick note, Bradley--this is exactly what I intended to say, so we agree. I didn't mean to imply literally controlling the literal content of people's thoughts--there are robots for that stuff-- so much as influencing the direction in which their thoughts tend. Sorry I put it misleadingly.

Thanks, everyone, for a stimulating day.

Sam(wise)--

Yeah, I had a feeling that's what you meant.

I like your point about how ignoring a problem won't make it go away, this is something that I find myself doing from time to time. That's what makes this so difficult; because you can't live in the world as you imagine it to be, but then again, you can't create what you don't imagine. So...yeah. I dunno what the solution is, I'll be really upfront about that.

Being the sole woman in an office of 10 men, for the longest time I was just "one of the guys." Until I was given an assignment to design a website that was geared towards woman simply because I happen to be one. I did my research. I found all the sites geared towards women that I could, and created my composites accordingly. And, even though I was using what I thought to be my technical skill in design to make my decisions on color and content placement, all the men in the office said "use pastels!" and "women need to be told exactly what to do, step by step." And surely enough, all the women that viewed the comps in our first focus group absolutely hated the pastels and all other references that were "strategically" placed there for the intent of making the designs more appealing to women.

I don't mean to turn my comment into gender-bashing, and I realize I'm probably deviating from the topic at hand. The point I was trying to make is that as much as I'd like to believe my day-to-day transactions with my co-workers aren't based on being male or female, the truth is they are. And in a lot of ways it undermines my concept of what is "good" in design, if I'm contantly being told that all of my background and years of experience are worth nothing when it comes to what men want and what women want.

Maybe it's just that clients are always going to go against everything you've ever been taught as to what is good design, or, as has been stated before, perhaps these are just the obstacles that designers, men and women both, need to overcome. To have the confidence enough to stand up for yourself when your ability to design is questioned.

I'm not sure how much that pertains to the initial topic, but I wanted to add my 2�.

I too tend to lurk here on a daily basis.

This site just doesn’t "inspire" me to be quite honest..i do hang around , check in, read comments here and there, but nothing sparks me to write in.

It all sounds too pre-recorded it's alot of "shouting from the side lines" in order to be critical on any subject there needs to be a 'trust" involved I see/feel none of that here, this is a place for ranting. On the girl issue as it applys to this site if your intimidated by the people here..just watch the wizard of oz, then think about this site, then move on.

Nancy (if you're still lurking),

thanks for your comments in this thread. certainly the circumstances that you were introduced to the site were as boisterous, vulgar and dogmatic as possible. Unfortunately, for a number of reasons, many of those traits have been highlighted in the last two weeks.

I would be curious if you still felt that same lack of trust in something like the "Teacher's POV" thread running concurrently? and/or what would be a more attractive format for you to contribute in - or what it would take to inspire you?

I’ve got thick skin the vh1 logo thing didn’t take anything out of my spirit, it was fine and I’d been to speak up before when other people got beat up so I knew what to expect. It was amazing how many off-line emails I got from people during that really cool, that was inspiring! I really like the idea of this site but not the vibe..maybe that will change I’d like that.

Nancy--

Gee. Deep. If you lurk here on occasion, yet claim not to find it that inspiring, I'd have to say that...you're full of shit. I mean, why would you even come in the first place? Why would you check in from time to time, then contribute as you did here (twice), only to say "I don't really care, this is stupid and 'pre-recorded.'"?

Your perception of the site is your own, but obviously you aren't motivated enough to make an effort to change what you see. While you accuse the site of being a "a place for ranting," I don't see your comments doing anything that much different. You don't contribute enough to this site to insult it, and you apparently don't care enough to change it.

You don't contribute enough to this site to insult it, and you apparently don't care enough to change it.

I have to take serious issue with this statement. If there is to become an entrance fee, so to speak, to be accepted here, then this is not the forum I wish to be associated with. Armin set the site up, and therefore he can certainly set the tone and control the content. But I believe this place is/should grow beyond him, and I imagine he expects/wants this. For that to happen, then we must accept people who want to contribute as well as those who wish to lurk and occasionally post when something catches their eye. The fact that Nancy doesn't post often does not render her opinion less valuable to me. If she says something stupid or intelligent, then I will take it as it comes.

This comment, Bradley, comes off as nothing more than a personal attack on Nancy, and seems directly opposite the true spirit of Speak Up. Your passion is welcome but better directed towards the more thoughtful posts you've graced us with before.

Please quit being such an ass, Bradley.

Jesse--

You hypocrite.

Jonsel--

I understand what you're getting at but I stand by what I say. I'm not a warm-n-fuzzy type and people who come here and make flip generalizations are going to get a response from me. I really have no tolerance for people who can't make a positive contribution yet disparage the site anyway, and I think letting them get away with it constitutes bending to their shallow desires. The more I can do to keep the disaffected, negative mentalities away, the better. You see it as a personal attack, I see it as calling someone on their aimless crap. If, however, you're implying that its pretty Quixotic of me or anyone else to chase down every dumbass rant, then I must admit--you are quite correct.

Bradley,

I agree my comment was hypocritical. One might say it was a personal attack.

How did it make you feel?

Jesse--

It didn't make me feel anything, nor did I think about it much beyond responding with what I said--"hypocrite." What are you trying to prove?

We can either all sit around worrying about "how we make someone feel," and watch our words and be politically correct and non-offensive, or, we can talk openly and see what happens. If I'm being uncivil in my discourse, fine--and I don't mind being called on it either--but I'm not going to speak according to everyone's whim. And in this instance, I really think I was civil. Blunt and upfront? Yeah, but its not like I was making an attack on her character and I dare anyone to point out where I ever did. What Nancy said about the site to me reeked of a sting she's STILL feeling from the attacks launched on her VH1 logo (which, off-subject, I kinda like now). I'd bet that if people were fawning over it she'd have a totally different perspective. If anything, I'd say that SHE was making a personal attack on the people who DO post here regularly.

So--just to clarify. If you lurk but don't post, fine--be it time or level of interest, that makes sense. If you lurk and don't post except to bitch about how the site is "pre-recorded" and whatever else, I have no tolerance for it. Maybe some do, but I don't, and because I can I'll speak my mind about it.

I think the men have hijacked this thread enough.

I'm all for a good verbal smackdown, but this has become pointless.

Feel free to continue your brawl offline gents -- please.

And in this instance, I really think I was civil. Blunt and upfront? Yeah, but its not like I was making an attack on her character and I dare anyone to point out where I ever did.

bradley-

Saying to someone that they're full of shit, is civil!?

Are you serious??

Disagree with someone all you want--no problem with that. Let them know what you think--again, one is free to voice one's opinion. But the phrase you used is neither civil nor appropriate to [my impression of] the spirit of this site. It was absolutely a personal attack. Face it, your use of that expression didn't address your specific disagreement with her comments--it's function was to completely invalidate her and any opinions she might have. Any meaningful discourse that could have come out of a difference of opinions was immediately halted by your rude insult. For the record, I don't agree with what nancy said either, but I don't think she was trying to "get away with" anything. Furthermore, who made you the gatekeeper?

You could have chosen to "enlighten" her with your thoughts as to why SpeakUp is not just a place for ranting, and why it fulfills an important and worthwhile need in the design community. Community! A community which includes those who respectfully disagree. Or, perhaps, you might have engaged her in a discussion about what would be useful to her in a forum such as this (see eric's post).

So, rather than backpedalling and trying to justify your outburst, why don't you just do the right thing and apologize to nancy. I doubt that anyone will think you've gone all warm-n-fuzzy on us.

More thoughts on Civility

Tan-

Didn't mean to continue the hijacking. Sorry.

It's cooler if you read the last comment author's name to the tune of Aretha Frankiln's Respect. R-E-S-P...

find out what it means to me...

Seriously, we need to move on. As the official gatekeeper of the site I have to say that yes, perhaps Bradley's tone was a bit rough but maybe it got people upset because it spoke some truth, if he wants to apologize he can do so himself, I'm not a 100% sure he owes anything to anybody. That's Bradley for ya. So, please let's just get on with the other discussions.

Armin-

I'm glad someone got my musical reference!

And now, moving on....

Yes, and now I got the damn song stuck in my head thank you very much.

no one owes me an apology, but If every time I do decide to post people want to infer that my tone or opinion's are based on if people liked the VH1 logo or not...COME ON!!

What VH1 logo? Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about Nancy...