NOTE: This is an archived version of the first incarnation of Brand New. All posts have been closed to comments. Please visit underconsideration.com/brandnew for the latest version. If you would like to see this specific post, simply delete _v1 from the URL.
I was hoping that I would never have to write this post for Brand New, but the growing flurry of offensive and useless comments in the past few months makes it necessary. Brand New has grown into one of the most popular blogs about identity design and many, many people in the industry around the world — from interns, to creative directors, to principals — turn to us for the latest work. To their (and my own) dismay everyone is consistently disappointed by the ensuing commentary, and while some may actually enjoy the car-wreck aspect of it, it has become, in some instances, too bile and hurtful. This is unacceptable.
Like any person who runs a blog, I enjoy seeing the comment counts rise to 50, 70, 100 and more, but the truth is that no more than a quarter of those comments are worth reading. The main trend in comments is to say “this sucks” or some other alternative mode of pithy, ruthless offense. This stops now. Unless you have a substantiated and thoughtful response to why something, in your mind, “sucks” please do not comment at all. From now on all comments along the lines of “fail,” “this looks like student work,” or “the designer should be fired,” will be deleted at my own discretion without notification or explanation.
Another unacceptable trend is making personal attacks or slurs against any designer or design firm. Whether it’s Landor, Wolf Ollins, Paula Scher or Peter Arnell, calling them names or judging their personal character — specially when, in most likelihood, you don’t even know them in person — is off limits. These comments too will be deleted without notification or explanation.
If I, at any point, have engendered these kind of comments by my writing, I hope that you let me know too in this thread, so that I can, myself, be more careful. I resort to sarcasm and irony more often than not but I believe I attempt to do so with reasoned commentary that does not rely on mere offense.
Anonymous comments are unavoidable I guess, but please understand that this practice is considered cowardly and simply stupid, specially when someone is being offensive. If you can’t back up your words with a real name, handle, e-mail or web site, please don’t bother commenting here, you are not welcome. These comments will be deleted too.
The one thing you need to consider before posting a negative critique is to think how you would feel if someone wrote the exact thing about you and your work. If you can’t handle it, it’s unlikely someone else will enjoy it.
If this post loses Brand New a few hundred comments, visitors and pageviews a month, so be it, I prefer to sacrifice traffic over quality. Thank you for your understanding.
Jump to Most Recent Comment
Nick’s comment is:
Here Here! Thinking before you speak is always the best policy. Thanks Armin for standing up for whats right and not letting quantity get in the way of quality.
On Mar.09.2009 at 09:44 AM
jul’s comment is:
this sucks
On Mar.09.2009 at 09:45 AM
Patrick’s comment is:
here here!! Some integrity in the blogosphere is long overdue.
On Mar.09.2009 at 09:46 AM
Armin’s comment is:
Someone had to do that first, so @jul touche!
: )
On Mar.09.2009 at 09:46 AM
altoption’s comment is:
And what of the unsubstantiated "awesome"s, "love it"s, etc? There's a huge difference between a personal attack and someone weighing in with a one-word thumb's down. And I'd argue there's a value to open, public commentary -- even when it comes to the occasionally distasteful "sucks." And it will be hard to judge the overall consensus on work when a slew of negatives have been covertly removed.
On Mar.09.2009 at 09:50 AM
Ted’s comment is:
I agree overall, but I think saying that something looks like student work is extremely fitting in some cases.
On Mar.09.2009 at 09:52 AM
Jonathan’s comment is:
The word is "especially" not "specially"
On Mar.09.2009 at 09:53 AM
Nisio’s comment is:
I think if someone has a comment (good bad or indifferent), it should be supported by a logical rational.
On Mar.09.2009 at 09:57 AM
jul’s comment is:
all jokes aside i have to agree with @altopion. it would be a big bag of hurt to filter out all the comments that aren't properly worded, good or bad and not change the whole picture. i guess thats the problem with all comment-enabled sites though.
On Mar.09.2009 at 10:06 AM
Efren’s comment is:
I agree with you. Lets keep this blog clean and useful for everybody to read/comment/learn/teach.
On Mar.09.2009 at 10:06 AM
TheMaster’s comment is:
Good idea, Armin.
However, I do have to side with Altoption on this one. While the one-word smackdowns can be hurtful and don't provide the necessary backup, neither do the one-word approvals. Most of the comments that i've seen give the immediate thumbs-up should be shaved as well.
If what your doing here is cutting the commentary down to thought out, profound responses, you have to be fair. Both you and I know that a knee-jerk reaction is what it is....sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad.
It's your blog, do what you want.
On Mar.09.2009 at 10:07 AM
Ryan’s comment is:
It's great that this is being considered, but is deletion the right way to go about it. As an interactive designer and developer this is a problem that I am constantly dealing with. Brand New is far from the only blog that has this trouble.
The question is not how to eliminate distasteful comments, but how to lower their impact on the community itself. These comments will never really go away. People will inevitably find a way to post distasteful comments. Therefore just simply deleting comments may not be the right approach.
Who is the all seeing all knowing power that gets to decide what is appropriate or not? Shouldn't this be the community of readers and bloggers? Shouldn't they decide what is a valid comment?
Before considering just simply editing the voice of the community consider that maybe the system itself is broken. There are a number of ways to remove/disengage the effects of undesirable comments, but I believe that the community should have the power to decide what is appropriate and what is not. ie. (There could be a system that allows users to simply flag comments or rate comments; pushing poorly rated comments or flagged comments out of view of other users.)
Deletion is censorship and is there really a place for censorship on blogs?
On Mar.09.2009 at 10:07 AM
Chris Johnson’s comment is:
Criticism encompasses both negative and positive feedback. Why are you singling out only simplistic negative feedback for removal? If I believe that something "sucks" or appears to be so lacking in sophistication and laden in cliche that it "looks like student work" I should be able to express those opinions. I see this as no different than saying something is "great" or that it "looks truly professional".
I support the ban on personal attacks.
I do not support your banning certain comments at your own discretion. Please formulate concrete rules for commenting, post them and then enforce them. It is my opinion that seemingly arbitrary enforcement of unclear or undisclosed rules "sucks".
On Mar.09.2009 at 10:13 AM
Adam’s comment is:
While I don't agree with being outwardly offensive in the comments without justification, I can't help but think this might be a bad thing. Censorship never works, and as already mentioned....removing negative comments may give a false impression of how the work is being received by the design community. Is there another answer here?
On Mar.09.2009 at 10:13 AM
Mike’s comment is:
How silly to allow only those with approving comments or politically correct critiques. Any designer worth his salt should be able to withstand/selectively ignore some rude rejection of his work, it is all subjective after all.
I guess you can draw the line at unappropriate ad hominems, but as long it is about the work I say let freedom ring.
On Mar.09.2009 at 10:15 AM
Adam’s comment is:
I personally like Ryan and Chris Johnson's ideas.
On Mar.09.2009 at 10:15 AM
Spike ’s comment is:
Bravo!! Thank you for making this decision and running with it. What I found incredible is that when I followed a link from a "this sucks" comment to their own site, their work really didn't hold a candle to what they were criticizing.
There's a big difference between critiquing and criticizing for no good reason other than jealousy.
On Mar.09.2009 at 10:15 AM
Andrew Sabatier’s comment is:
How about using IntenseDebate or Disqus?
Profiles with history are accountable and are more likely to add value to the discussion.
Win, win.
A.
Maya’s comment is:
It would be nice to have the comments at least sorted since i don't have time to go through the unnecessary ones to read the thought out comments.
On Mar.09.2009 at 10:17 AM
Andy’s comment is:
I think a better option (if it's possible) might be to 'hide' these comments at your own discretion, but leave the option open to the reader and offer a clickable 'show comment' button. This way, the post can be kept clutter-free, visually speaking, but people still have to option to read the whole thing, garbage and all, if they wish.
On Mar.09.2009 at 10:22 AM
drewdraws2’s comment is:
This is welcome to me Armin, as I stopped commenting a few months ago when the comments started growing significantly with less and less to say (we miss you von glitschka!).
I have a thought they might meet some people in the middle. What about a positive and negative "poll" (thumbs up or down, etc.) on each new brand? Then the folks who just want to say it sucks can have their say without crowding the comments.
On Mar.09.2009 at 10:28 AM
Jonathan’s comment is:
It is annoying to have to filter thru to read good critiques, but I feel like you've put a lot of work on your shoulders Armin, maybe even unnecessary work. I agree with deleting comments that blatantly knock designers or firms, but if something really is poor (ie - YRC) it should get what it deserves.
On Mar.09.2009 at 10:31 AM
benevolo’s comment is:
i must say I agree with the removal of personal attacks on people that like you say, most people may not even know, and i could do without the one word burns. However, i don't think of this site as one to solve the issues of posted projects but more as a comment board. Ideally we could engage in a thoughtful debate about the projects but in most cases they provoke an immediate reaction that is not always expressed in the most eloquent way. I guess we can say if you dont have something interesting to say don't say anything at all.
On Mar.09.2009 at 10:31 AM
Peter V Cook’s comment is:
Bravo!
On Mar.09.2009 at 10:32 AM
Justin’s comment is:
I commend you for making this stand. I think this is a good move. Forcing commenters to think before posting and actually coming up with a decent critique instead of just bashing work will not only help others reading it, but it can cut back on the "junk."
Maybe this move will keep the comments section from becoming a collection of people racing to post "FIRST!"
On Mar.09.2009 at 10:33 AM
Kenny’s comment is:
I will assume that Armin took a lot of time before coming up with an explanation for taking a stance that is clearly censorship. However, just because a person can say anything doesn't mean we should.
I see the point of the blog or comment section as being a way to add to a discussion. I think we can all agree that certain comments do not add to it. It is too simple to just say something sucks. If you truly feel that way, take a chance and prove it. If you can't explain yourself beyond that then take some time to come up with a more concise reason for the comment.
I think if anyone ready to make a comment would just take a little extra time before typing (just like taking extra time in public before opening your mouth and saying the first thing that pops into your head), then the quality would increase dramatically and we as a community would reap the full benefit.
All too many times I see these comments as virtual litter or graffiti, stating or leaving evidence that so and so was here. With so much disrespect in the world, is this really how we want to conduct ourselves? Don't these personal attacks disrespect the proprietors of this site?
Censorship has its place. Don't assume you can spray paint your pithy observations on my house and then claim free speech. Comments with no real thought on someone's Web site are a privilege to the user, not necessarily a right.
On Mar.09.2009 at 10:35 AM
Caryn’s comment is:
Wow, some people didn't really read all of what Armin wrote before they jumped in to argue. He never said he is only deleting negative comments. He said he is deleting posts that are quick to give a thumbs down without an explanation. "Unless you have a substantiated and thoughtful response to why something, in your mind, 'sucks' please do not comment at all." Along this same line, I vehemently disagree with those who said that it is all subjective anyway. Design has rules and structure that give it the ability to be beautiful, iffy or ugly. I'm a believer in breaking the rules to achieve something better and greater, but knowledge of the rules is the only way to break them well. I support Armin in this as he is simply asking for real contributions to discussion, not just giving yourself the chance to throw in some comment that took you less time to think of than to type it. And in my book, that goes for comments good or bad.
On Mar.09.2009 at 10:36 AM
rickyaustin’s comment is:
It does seem like many come here with the mindset of bashing whatever is here as if it's a pinata.
Good post Armin.
On Mar.09.2009 at 10:36 AM
TheMaster’s comment is:
what's that saying--
"you made your bed....
On Mar.09.2009 at 10:45 AM
Neil’s comment is:
I'm glad that you've decided to enforce these moderations. On top of them, I think the deletion of "First!" posts needs to definitely be included in your new mantra.
On Mar.09.2009 at 10:49 AM
Chaac’s comment is:
I guess you could always have user registration open and automatically accept comments only if you're subscribed. I guess that is an option if you really want quality in comments, less anonymity and readers to take their own participation more seriously.
I for one most times like the tone of your identity journalism (let's call it that) and I understand it as you feeling comfortable with the subject and expressing yourself freely.
However, this also leads to misinterpretation and could be understood as pure mockery sometimes. My respectful advice would be this: moderate comments but don't moderate yourself in the articles. You are consistent with your style throughout the articles and it only takes reading two or three of them to understand the blog's format.
As a side note, I had to do the exact same thing in my blog when talking about Mexicana Airline's redesign. I guess when you write about big brands by big agencies and if the critique goes south, some people just wants to get even instead of appreciating the input. My only comment for that would be: it sucks!
On Mar.09.2009 at 10:54 AM
Joseph Murphy’s comment is:
Of course, the personal insults towards designers should be completely unwelcome. And while I agree that the "this sucks" comments are annoying, when you're scrolling down through the comments and you notice a lot of "this sucks", you do get something from it.
Obviously, this is not the same as a basketball game, but filtering that out is sort of like telling people not to "boo", and instead recommending they critique the players form and technique. Sometimes, you just think something sucks, and not everyone wants to explain why - especially if it's really bad!
However, it is your blog, and if you think it would create a more intellectual, interesting read (it would, right?), then why not. But, it is kind of weird to know that a lot of the knee-jerk reactions from people are not being seen.
On Mar.09.2009 at 10:59 AM
felix sockwell’s comment is:
Good for you Arm.
Especially on the anonymous action that breeds the worst comments. Those of us who have been here posting with you since 1992 will mark this day on our calendar as the day we started actually reading others peoples crap... again.
On Mar.09.2009 at 10:59 AM
David Airey’s comment is:
I find that adding a short 'comment policy' above the comment box makes it much easier (in my mind) to delete any comments that don't add to the discussion.
It doesn't need to be anything long. In fact, you could simply say, "Comments subject to the Brand New moderation policy" with 'moderation policy' linking to this page.
On Mar.09.2009 at 11:04 AM
cole’s comment is:
thank you. that trend has kept me from going into the comments much, actually.
On Mar.09.2009 at 11:04 AM
Joel Herman’s comment is:
Well said, Armin... and well said, Kenny.
drewdraw2 brings up a good idea. How about a "thumbs up or thumbs down" poll? Or, a 1 to 5 star poll. That should weed out most of the "sucks" or "awesome" one word posts, plus it would be cool to quickly browse the logos and see how many stars or rotten tomatoes etc. are given.
On Mar.09.2009 at 11:05 AM
JD ’s comment is:
Armin, I respect your decision but I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you on this one. For as much as I support the constructive character of any healthy design critique or discussion, I think there are ways – like Ryan's idea – for the own public to decide whether or not a particular response adds something to the conversation or if it's just mere "noise". I'm sure you'll use your best judgement on this matter.
Keep up the great work.
Jeremy Heilpern’s comment is:
Good call Armin. I've been a long time viewer, but have only commented a few times due to feeling like I was engaging in some kind of pissing contest. Maybe that will soon change.
On Mar.09.2009 at 11:13 AM
Daniel Bertalotto’s comment is:
Thanks, Armin.
I have posted in the past when I felt compelled, but have lost interest due to the sweeping inconsiderate posts that seemed to drown out those debating the considered brands.
I look forward to see how effective post will be moving forward.
Best to all.
On Mar.09.2009 at 11:13 AM
Matt’s comment is:
or why not just explain yourself as to why you think the design sucks and give constructive criticism on how it could've been done better?
On Mar.09.2009 at 11:13 AM
M.’s comment is:
I agree with the tone of this - but the idea that criticism or, in some cases, honest dismay, about a design decision should not be expressed because it is "mean" to do so, is wrong. Sticks and stones, man. Suck it up.
On Mar.09.2009 at 11:17 AM
Daniel’s comment is:
Well said.
I'm intrigued as to what specific comment broke the camel's back!
On Mar.09.2009 at 11:18 AM
designscene’s comment is:
i think all comments, good or bad, should have some purpose, that is to improve the quality of graphic design in some way. If the comment is not doing that, but is just expressing personal and offensive opinion, then there is no point.
On Mar.09.2009 at 11:26 AM
Ben’s comment is:
It seems to me that "Bravo!" should be selected for deletion as much as "This sucks." Both lack any real merit other than a short reaction.
If you are seeking real discourse, then perhaps you should consider deleting any comment that doesn't include some amount of measured reasoning. Otherwise, you are simply favoring positivity and perhaps unfairly skewing the perceived reaction to the work.
On Mar.09.2009 at 11:28 AM
Anonymous’s comment is:
I'm going to go a bit against the grain here and say I don't think that any comment (besides irrelevant spamming) is completely useless. I like seeing a large number of comments despite being well-thought out or not because I like to see a cross-section of opinion; especially in areas that are often very subjective.
I still think blogs need a "this sucks/is awesome" button - so those of us less inclined (or too busy) to pen a well-thought out comment can still weigh in with our opinion without being chastised about not being "useful" enough. Must we really live our lives constantly fulfilling some purpose?
Also, any designer or design firm that can't handle a bit of uncalled for criticism needs to really think about life in general; and perhaps reconsider relocating to a cabin in the woods where they may escape the harsh clutches of reality.
Oh, and maybe you should reconsider anonymous commenting (yes, yes I know); I've always said it's a lot harder to say "fuck you" to someone once you know their name. I suppose I may be inclined to give up my anonymity so I can say "I told you so" once the Arnell Group connects with the mothership to complete their study of the effects of zero-gravity on the new Pepsi logo.
A joke on Arnell's expense, yes - but it's all in fun; he's not a bad guy, a bit "out there" - as often the best of us can be.
I'm going to go ahead and equate what I've just written to vomiting in public; I don't feel as sick, and cleaning it up isn't my responsibility.
Oh, and sorry if you got any of it on your shoes.
k-
On Mar.09.2009 at 11:31 AM
Josh’s comment is:
It's your blog Armin, do what you think appropriate with it. Frankly it would feel fresh to get away from visitor-dominated direction.
You've got a good head on your shoulders, you pay the bills that make the blog and you're the primary writer here. If it's a pain for you to see them (I know it's a pain for me to read them..) then what justification is there against you censoring your own content?
You might consider getting rid of the "first" comments too... that's almost as bad as the bash-fest.
On Mar.09.2009 at 11:31 AM
damon’s comment is:
"Anonymous comments are unavoidable I guess, but please understand that this practice is considered cowardly and simply stupid, specially when someone is being offensive. If you can't back up your words with a real name, handle, e-mail or web site, please don't bother commenting here, you are not welcome. These comments will be deleted too."
that's the answer right there. Have people sign up for a membership approved by yourself with real email addresses, and delete users who don't contribute the way you want to.
Steve Killen’s comment is:
As has been implied already, I think comments that simple state “This is great” or “Fantastic”, have to go as well. Unsubstantiated positive criticism is just as valueless as unsubstantiated negative criticism and waste just as much time to scroll past.
On Mar.09.2009 at 11:41 AM
Scott Stowell’s comment is:
Lately my Brand New reading frequency has decreased, and it's not just because there seems to be a lot more bad news on the site lately. Blimpie? Air France? Kraft? Jack in the Box? Come on! Every new post has been another chance for people to be uncivil and downright mean. So this request for respect is nice.
I do (respectfully) think that some commenters above are missing the point, though. Armin is not necessarily deleting comments based on their content. He's just letting everyone know that anonymous comments are not welcome, regardless of their content or tone.
Many blogs require a real name and e-mail address attached to each comment. This decreases the number of posts but increases the level of thoughtfulness--and accountability. So if you want to say something sucks (and a lot of things do suck), go for it. But you should be able to sign your name to it.
On Mar.09.2009 at 11:54 AM
Shonna’s comment is:
Thank you, thank you. I for one, bristle when I read useless, negative comments, and usually stop reading the thread when I encounter them. Thanks for standing up for this. I appreciate it. And, keep up the good work, I love Brand New!
On Mar.09.2009 at 12:05 PM
Jeffry Pilcher’s comment is:
It's simple: You have to ARTICULATE a COGNITIVE argument using RATIONAL thought and RELEVANT points.
What one thinks about the firm or the designer is irrelevant to any specific design. If you think it looks like student work, say why, so that others know what NOT to do if "student work" is something they'd like to avoid.
If it's really important for people to voice their displeasure, then Armin can put in a poll for each redesign. But no one wants to read an endless slew of vapid comments: Sucks... hate it... dumb... fail... worst ever. The arrogance of some designers is simply stunning.
On Mar.09.2009 at 12:07 PM
steve matlock’s comment is:
1. It's your blog - you can set the rules to whatever you want.
2. I agree that H@X0R D00DZ should be defenestrated. Or de-linuxed or de-mac'ed.
3. If you are looking for advice, the Internet is full of helpful & anonymous gurus.
4. Perhaps you could have a voting scheme of + or - for a topic & then have comments.
5. However, see #1 - do what ever you want. It's your blog.
Paul Rand's reanimated corpse from the future’s comment is:
@Scott Stowell
I'm confused by this...
"Blimpie? Air France? Kraft? Jack in the Box?"
Those are all fairly large brands who recently updated their branding - where's the beef here? Are you suggesting that a blog entitled "Brand New" (it's a play on words, get it?) should simply scoff at brands your region may be unfamiliar with, or you personally just don't care about? (forgive me if you have some other, more valid logic that I'm failing to see)
and also
"He's just letting everyone know that anonymous comments are not welcome, regardless of their content or tone."
I think you may in actuality be missing the point.
I'm pretty sure that's not what he's saying at all - anonymous comments are nearly unavoidable on a blog as there's not much of a way to prove identity; even IP address blocking is incredibly easy to circumvent.
What is a real name and email address in today's world? I can go register anything I want with any information I want with no cost and very little accountability (though yes, a slightly improved amount of accountability in many cases simply due to the fact I have to put effort into registering).
On Mar.09.2009 at 12:11 PM
Christopher’s comment is:
Comments on the web are the main reason that I try to read everything in Google Reader. Yes, I miss the aesthetic sensibilities of the web design -- but I also don't get sucked in to reading the drivel that makes me question the future of humankind. Thanks for taking this step toward sanity, Armin. It is after all, your blog and you have to and should edit the dialogue for quality in the same way you edit the posts.
On Mar.09.2009 at 12:12 PM
Anonymous’s comment is:
I just want to comment that I think you're confused over the "anonymous" issue. Comments here already aren't anonymous to you, the admin, to the extent that the server records our network addresses, which makes it easier for you to track abusive users. Comments are pseudonymous to other visitors to the extent that there is no identity or user-account authentication, which lowers the barrier for commenting but makes it easy and fun to do.
You said: "If you can't back up your words with a real name, handle, e-mail or web site, please don't bother commenting here, you are not welcome." Do you really mean that? I'd wager that you've never authenticated any comment poster's identity over content, though perhaps it's been necessary to prevent misrepresentation. Rather, it seems you want users to use pseudonyms (not real identities) in order to promote a false sense of reputation and "responsibility" on each commenter. But without a system to enforce this connection to real life, even if hidden behind a pseudonym, all you're saying is that you'll be deleting comments by certain usernames where any other username would do, even if it's a deceit. Then the choice of user name becomes something other than presence or lack of identity, and becomes a game that none of us care to play.
If you mean that you want commenters to be held accountable, such that their posting privileges hinge on their ability to follow the site's terms, then I suggest stating such up front. Even if you don't set up the software to enforce that, I certainly can respect that sentiment; and it would be clear how and why it would be enforced. But confusing pseudonyms with real-world names does not engender respect of the confused rules.
And to add to the other anonymous' suggestion: a poll on each brand-change article (maybe options for both dimensions of like/dislike and level of professionalism) would reduce the content-less comments. Often, people are looking to express just that and little else; other times, they want to react to the prevailing attitudes in the comments. I think that addition would improve dialog, as well as give you a tangible, so to speak, thing to point to on the page and say "I deleted this comment because it said nothing that couldn't have been said by simply registering a binary opinion instead -- if you want a comment to last, do better."
On Mar.09.2009 at 12:19 PM
Jeremy Matthews’s comment is:
I like this.
Draft Blogger's Code of Conduct
All too often, blogs are used to publicly air personal issues. Trashing someone's personal character remotely is un-professional and un-cool.
Ask yourself this, could I stand in front of these people and say this to their faces? If not, don't hide behind a web site.
On Mar.09.2009 at 12:29 PM
colormist’s comment is:
going to second drewdraws2 comment (and other's like it):
"I have a thought they might meet some people in the middle. What about a positive and negative "poll" (thumbs up or down, etc.) on each new brand? Then the folks who just want to say it sucks can have their say without crowding the comments."
This would reduce a lot of the "sucks" and "I like it" comments. Reddit has something similar. I don't ever comment there, but I like to weigh in. Probably wouldn't comment here either if there was a poll for each redesign.
On Mar.09.2009 at 12:30 PM
jRod’s comment is:
I totally agree. it will only make the site more credible. thanks for caring about such stuff... a lot of people dont.
On Mar.09.2009 at 12:31 PM
Russel’s comment is:
Didn't get through all the comments above but did anyone suggest creating a rating system as an alternative for people that want to post the one liner "this sucks/this rules" comments? Like a 5-star or thumbs up/down system? I'm sure it's more pain-in-the-ass programming to implement now, but it could separate those that have nothing valid to say, from those that do.
On Mar.09.2009 at 12:33 PM
Drew Pickard’s comment is:
It makes me exceedingly sad to read the comments on this blog.
I would definitely appreciate some level of 'censorship' or 'filtering'.
Eventually each and every forum disintegrates into pithy, snarky commenting . . . I don't know if there's a permanent solution for it but we gotta start somewhere . . .
On Mar.09.2009 at 12:36 PM
JBIII’s comment is:
I agree that Like/Dislike Radio Buttons and no anonymous comments would help solve some of these issues.
I have also stopped reading comments in the past 6 months due to lack of substance in them.
Whatever you decide to do, please keep the main content/articles coming.
Cheers
-John
Scott Stowell’s comment is:
Are you suggesting that a blog entitled "Brand New" (it's a play on words, get it?) should simply scoff at brands your region may be unfamiliar with, or you personally just don't care about? (forgive me if you have some other, more valid logic that I'm failing to see)
I think you misunderstood my comment, Paul Rand's reanimated corpse from the future. I was lightheartedly pointing out what I consider bad news. It's not that those redesigns are unfamiliar and/or uninteresting to me. It's that I don't like them. I did sign my name to the comment, though.
What is a real name and email address in today's world? I can go register anything I want with any information I want with no cost and very little accountability (though yes, a slightly improved amount of accountability in many cases simply due to the fact I have to put effort into registering).
A real name and e-mail address is a real name and e-mail address. By using registration, required confirmation of comments, and/or active moderation, we can help make sure that we're all talking to each other directly like real people. And that would help make every discussion better for everybody.
On Mar.09.2009 at 12:53 PM
Edgar’s comment is:
this sucks!
lol. just kidding.
yeah, always the same old story...
famous blog = comment invasion (not in a good way).
its like that "first!" comments. what's up with that? geeez grow up guys...
well, since its the first time i comment here, i'll leave my congratulations for your nice work.
keep it up ;)
Scott’s comment is:
Sometimes a turd is just that ... a turd. One's ability to dress up his/her commentary with facts is nice, but essentially unnecessary with many of the designs that are presented here.
As long as commentary doesn't include personal attacks, I'm for free speech. But when someone has a name with "nigger" in it, for example? That's just foolish and should be removed.
On Mar.09.2009 at 12:57 PM
Seymore Butts’s comment is:
Scott Stowell - as said somewhat inappropriately by the person you are responding to... That's impossible! anyone can make up any fake information and post on anything they want. I'm posting this comment with a real name and e-mail address.
I even linked my website. Really, I swear it's me.
On Mar.09.2009 at 12:57 PM
Anonymous’s comment is:
Scott Stowell’s comment is:
Scott Stowell - as said somewhat inappropriately by the person you are responding to... That's impossible! anyone can make up any fake information and post on anything they want. I'm posting this comment with a real name and e-mail address.
Seymore, I understand that anyone can post with a fake name, e-mail address, or URL, just as you did. My point was that you shouldn't. Also, there are plenty of sites that require registration and/or confirmation of your comments via e-mail. And if all else fails, such comment(s) can be deleted by the moderator.
On Mar.09.2009 at 01:06 PM
Drew Dunford’s comment is:
Amen to that... we just need something like this on Youtube. Why does everything on the web have to boil down to a school yard insult fest?
On Mar.09.2009 at 01:10 PM
DD’s comment is:
@Nick: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hear_hear
On Mar.09.2009 at 01:12 PM
Ronlewhorn’s comment is:
Thanks Armin! I love the commentary here and turn to it for inspiration and education. I love some great smack talk, but the best smack talk comes backed with quality rationale and intelligence. I'm always surprised that people who make the ignorant remarks actually frequent a site like brand new.
I look forward to seeing the changes in our community here.
Nick’s comment is:
@DD: Douchebag.
On Mar.09.2009 at 01:14 PM
Ronlewhorn’s comment is:
and yes, sorting with a rating system for comments would be great. as well as keeping records of a persons commentaries.
On Mar.09.2009 at 01:15 PM
Dean’s comment is:
What about a small poll attached to each post that basically has a few choices for those people that can't be bothered, don't have time or are not intelligent enough to put why they love or hate something into words. That way with a simple click the could share the POV and it would be faster than typing "It Sucks" It could look something like this:
How did you feel about this Logo/Brand Design?
1) Loved It, It was amazing, Best Design ever!
2) It was Very Good, Well Done.
3) It was Good - It's a nice design.
4) It is Average - not Great not Horrible
5) Not a good design at all
6) It Sucked, worse Logo ever.
Or just have a rating system. 1 to 5 stars or similar.
On Mar.09.2009 at 01:22 PM
Smirker’s comment is:
I agree with drew2drew... use a thumbs up / thumbs down button, for the 'it rocks' / 'it sucks' crowd then leave comments for people with something to say.
On Mar.09.2009 at 01:47 PM
tom’s comment is:
Here's another vote for a poll-like voting system (prolly a range from 1 to 5 rather than thumbs up/down).
I'd like also to point out slashdot's auto-regulatory form of comment moderation that I find pretty amazing (reading comments with a score of 3, 4 or 5 practically filters out all the idiocy).
Finally, If we are to improve the comments system... a reply-to functionality could help too.
thanks and keep the good work.
tom
p.s. I do also feel that anonymous comments are valuable and important.
On Mar.09.2009 at 01:58 PM
Char’s comment is:
I am glad this is being implemented. The unprofessional, unethical and childish attitude from some people here is unacceptable and I have to admit, rather disappointing coming from people whose work I like and admire.
There is time and place for everything. To the people that posted the rick roll and the prince of bel-air, all I got to say is rules 1 & 2.
On Mar.09.2009 at 02:08 PM
Xav’s comment is:
May I suggest a "Thumbs Up" "Thumbs Down" option added somewhere in the posts (like on the colbernation blog for ex)?
This would maybe keep monosyllabic commentators happy.
You could even customize the functionality to "This Sucks" and "Love it".
On Mar.09.2009 at 02:20 PM
Jack’s comment is:
Is there any way to incorporate something that lets moderators rank a comment as "insightful" or "not insightful" (for lack of a better term), hiding the "not insightful" comment in a drop-down of some sort? that way the particularly good comments would show first, and if someone wanted to see the less interesting comments they could "show" them at their own will.
That way you're not having to delete comments (unless they're spam), you can just hide the ones that you feel aren't contributing to the dialogue (whether it's "this sucks" or "love it")
I guess I'm picturing something like slashdot's moderation, but not user-moderated (that could be just as disastrous)
On Mar.09.2009 at 02:24 PM
emworks’s comment is:
It's your blog, do as you wish.
However, consider this - filtering comments deminishes credibilty. Your blog is widely acceptable mainly for its objective approach.
Kyle Fletcher’s comment is:
Steal the rotten tomatoes color discerned review system and add a filter to comments for users to filter with?
On Mar.09.2009 at 02:46 PM
Dave’s comment is:
I try to think of this blog like the critiques I had in design school. It wasn't acceptable to just say this logo sucks or this logo is great - you had to explain your point of view--mainly WHY you thought what you thought--at which point people either agreed or disagreed with you.
Criticism (and critiques) only make a designer grow, but it has to be constructive.
On Mar.09.2009 at 02:50 PM
jason’s comment is:
This may have been said already (I didn't read through all the comments), but what about adding some kind of voting system? Would the option to vote up or down alleviate the need for one-liner critiques while still allowing more thoughtful responses through?
I'm not saying a full rating system, by the way.
On Mar.09.2009 at 03:04 PM
Zachary Katz’s comment is:
What if people could vote wether they like the design or not? That would eliminate much of the "I like it" or "I don't like it" posts.
On Mar.09.2009 at 03:07 PM
David Sanchez’s comment is:
Thank you for the Brand New service Armin.
Constructive criticism is good, help outs bring the best and worst in us all. One can improve upon it, and take it as a subjective opinion, which is absolutely acceptable.
Given the nature of the medium and the industry topic in which we all work, we know there are intrinsic candid characters in our field of work, some cowards that opt to execute their right of anonymity others comes right in front with their point of view, some make sense and some others are utter amusing rubbish.
I can understand your views and concerns, but the commenting phenomena is part of the social platform. Domesticated animals after all, bashing is human nature and applauding too. You as an editor as a measure of reputation management, is good to do some clean up, however you are omitting valuable information and input.
I hope none of the big players like FutureBrand, Interbrand, Landor, Lippincott, Sigel & Gale, The Brand Union, Wolff-Olins approached you and demanded some censorship, that will make UC Brand New ethics questionable catering to the outcome of their work? without thinking it has an impact. Sure they will be concern because their clients will ready the nonsense posted on blogs about their expensive work, but you know what, this is reality, The era of one way communication is over, and you will definitely receive feedback on the social media sphere for trashy, good, horrible, awesome, brutal or amazing work. The egomaniacs should take a closer look at the social media phenomena rather than demising it.
Yes, They are verbs, and really powerful when accompanied by real names.
On Mar.09.2009 at 03:15 PM
Tarah’s comment is:
Thank you for continuing to make this a valuable and respectable resource for our industry.
On Mar.09.2009 at 03:19 PM
Armin’s comment is:
> I hope none of the big players like FutureBrand, Interbrand, Landor, Lippincott, Sigel & Gale, The Brand Union, Wolff-Olins approached you and demanded some censorship, that will make UC Brand New ethics questionable catering to the outcome of their work?
Just before someone takes that and turns it into a fact: No, no one demanded anything.
On Mar.09.2009 at 03:23 PM
Paul Cooley’s comment is:
I am into the idea of having accounts with a history, I think that would help solidify the extremely inspirational and constructive place that this site has in my own design education.
Regardless, I am happy to see this post and I hope it will be adhered to.
On Mar.09.2009 at 03:25 PM
Justin’s comment is:
Language Log is niche blog with a sensible moderation policy. Essentially, they delete "intellectually empty" comments -- things like "this sucks" or "bravo". Read about it here.
I agree with Zachary that simple "thumbs up" or "thumbs down" could be added to give an overall positive/negative reaction without all the vacuous comments.
On Mar.09.2009 at 03:31 PM
Anonymous’s comment is:
Someone on Twitter raised an interesting question that's going around - which agency requested this censorship?
On Mar.09.2009 at 03:42 PM
Anon’s comment is:
Honestly, if this fascistic philosophy prevailed in the world, it'd be a sad place indeed. This kind of stuff never works properly in practice. Comments reflect the overall public sentiment, and if you can't handle those comments, you shouldn't have enabled comments in the first place. Censorship of simpleminded opinions is never the answer, especially when your only criteria for censorship is "I'll do whatever I feel like, and my judgments are basically arbitrary." Please rethink your decision.
On Mar.09.2009 at 03:46 PM
Brian Pelsoh’s comment is:
I concur with the voting idea, a simple 1-5 scale would eliminate the need for the like/dislike comments. As cheesy as it sounds, something like Hot or Not would give voice to the thoughts of all readers.
On Mar.09.2009 at 03:50 PM
Anonymous’s comment is:
Turning off anonymous comments would help. At least dissuade a few drive-by keyboard commandos.
On Mar.09.2009 at 03:53 PM
Jw’s comment is:
I think personal attacks are completely inappropriate, but I have to say, isn't one of the first things a designer learns is that a baseless critique isn't worth their time? Does any designer take a comment like "i hate this" or "this is ugly" to heart? Whose feelings are getting hurt by these blurbs?
I hope it's just that Armin doesn't like having meanie-poo words on his website, otherwise I think there are some designers out there in need of hugs. I get nasty, baseless comments on my website every now and then, and it is definitely hard to let them stay up... especially when the article that's getting the negative attention wasn't written by me. The thought of deleting stuff just because I don't like it, though, makes me feel a little dirty.
If any designer that has been ripped on by commenters is truly offended, isn't it really their problem, not ours? And really, what value to the following actual comments from previous posts hold for designers?
Wow!
Very well done.
WTF?
don't get it.
They're not at all offensive, but they are mindless.
I will say, I find the overwhelming and baseless positive "critiques" just as delete-able as the negative ones, and if one is being censored, the other should be censored as well. Of course, people are allowed to do whatever they want on their own website, if you ask me. It's a privilege to post on someone else's site, not a right. However, it's a slippery slope when you start deleting comments... it becomes very easy to just delete things that are unpopular, rather than inappropriate.
I sorta saw this coming when Armin said this with regards to the NY Philharmonic mark:
I believe the logo will not be well received because this type treatment is uncommon and since we are all more comfortable with things that we are used to, something that steps out of the norm is generally received with distaste
This statement, to me, not only dares people to hate on the logo, it also sends a message to commenters that their opinion, if negative, is wrong. If you really feel that way, why allow comments at all? Or maybe just call it a "Praise Roll" and only allow kisses.
On Mar.09.2009 at 03:58 PM
the macho man’s comment is:
armin is right. people need to stop using the F-bomb, the s-word, and all the others. like momma used to tell me- IF YOU CAN'T SAY NOTHING NICE-DON"T SAY NOTHING AT ALL
the macho man disapproves cussing. what if you painted a car. your child said it was the F'in ugly thing he ever saw. FROM YOUR CHILD!! That would hurt you- don't you think it hurts the graphic designer's to???????
On Mar.09.2009 at 03:59 PM
Denny’s comment is:
I fully support this post.
On Mar.09.2009 at 04:04 PM
Guillermo Brea’s comment is:
Armin: excellent post.
On Mar.09.2009 at 04:17 PM
Tom at Ai of Portland’s comment is:
"Someone on Twitter raised an interesting question that's going around - which agency requested this censorship?"
I for one am very curious.
On Mar.09.2009 at 04:40 PM
Jason’s comment is:
bravo! i too agree that things get out of hand too quickly on blogs. it seems that when people can hide behind their computers, they don't have any type of filter. i believe commenting on this particular blog is like giving a critique to the designer him self. how would i have done it, or what do i think it needs, if anything.
On the same token. Count me in with the people that thinks you should delete any/all one-worded, simple, no back-bone, unexplained, uneducated posts... no matter if it's a positive or a negative post.
On Mar.09.2009 at 04:40 PM
Jason’s comment is:
bravo! i too agree that things get out of hand too quickly on blogs. it seems that when people can hide behind their computers, they don't have any type of filter. i believe commenting on this particular blog is like giving a critique to the designer him self. how would i have done it, or what do i think it needs, if anything.
On the same token. Count me in with the people that thinks you should delete any/all one-worded, simple, no back-bone, unexplained, uneducated posts... no matter if it's a positive or a negative post.
On Mar.09.2009 at 04:40 PM
Anonymous’s comment is:
I have to say, the macho man's comment is the most fulfilling comment I have read all day
On Mar.09.2009 at 04:41 PM
Jw’s comment is:
Let us not forget John Gabriel's Greater Internet F*ckwad Theory.
On Mar.09.2009 at 04:44 PM
adam’s comment is:
Honestly, if this fascistic philosophy prevailed in the world, it'd be a sad place indeed. This kind of stuff never works properly in practice.
come on now, this site is owned by an individual. it is his "property," all of us do not have some sort of inalienable right to comment here. he decided to share it, and he has the right to make the rules.
i agree about some sort of profile or registration thing to be able to comment.
On Mar.09.2009 at 04:47 PM
Armin’s comment is:
> I for one am very curious.
Alright, you all caught me. Oh no. Pentagram, Wolf Ollins, Landor, Interbrand, and Futurebrand paid me $50,000 each to start censoring people who hate their designs or principals. I'm using that money to buy a yacht and retire in the Caribbean.
Seriously, people.
On Mar.09.2009 at 04:49 PM
Adam Jay’s comment is:
I never comment here but read your blog in my RSS reader all the time. This has kept me out of reading the comment pool in the past so i had no idea things had downward spiraled.
Kudos to you for getting the train out of the ditch.
On Mar.09.2009 at 05:05 PM
Derek’s comment is:
Good for you. All gardens require weeding.
On Mar.09.2009 at 05:15 PM
Johnny Holeva’s comment is:
I can buy into weeding out personal attacks, F-bombs, jingoistic rants, and ridiculously lame "first" comments, but censoring feedback? That's a dis-heartening future for this blog, which I have admired for a long time now.
Brevity should have a place in the comments on this blog. Sometimes the best feedback is the briefest, most to the point.
On Mar.09.2009 at 05:56 PM
Anonymous’s comment is:
Am I allowed to say, "Woo!"
On Mar.09.2009 at 06:06 PM
Steve McFarland’s comment is:
My previous comment was not intended to be anonymous, although it increases the irony factor!
On Mar.09.2009 at 06:06 PM
SEO’s comment is:
I agree
seo
Tom at Ai of Portland’s comment is:
Armin said:
Alright, you all caught me. Oh no. Pentagram, Wolf Ollins, Landor, Interbrand, and Futurebrand paid me $50,000 each to start censoring people who hate their designs or principals. I'm using that money to buy a yacht and retire in the Caribbean.
Seriously, people.
Questioning the motivation of suppressing negative commentary seems like a valid concern to me. A major part of the appeal of this site is that it has a diverse sampling of feedback with hardly any censorship.
If I started to get the sense that most critical comments are being deleted I would start to look elsewhere for honest design discussion. While some comments are indeed ugly and useless they serve as indicators that people are free to react to the work autonomously and honestly.
For me, that is a quality discussion and is more important than a false presentation of positivity. Sometimes what is most difficult to say and hear is most accurate and necessary to be uttered.
I have noted that you only suggested that you weren't paid to censor by some big names, you didn't come out and say no one asked you to do this nor that no one provided any compensation for you to do so.
On Mar.09.2009 at 06:28 PM
Lauren ’s comment is:
On the topic of brevity, many posts are made that express short opinions ("I really liked the old one!") or show a similar looking identity for consideration. Are those too vapid?
I don't consider myself a "master" in any sense but I do like participating, and I'm not sure if that type of critique-less or critique-light comment is OK now!
On Mar.09.2009 at 06:30 PM
altoption’s comment is:
No problem with a policy like this: "All personal attacks and stupid comments will be removed at my discretion." Though, personally, I don't mind short feedback, positive or negative, I agree that a poll may effectively reduce the one-word postings. And registration to comment is always an option.
On Mar.09.2009 at 06:31 PM
Yves’s comment is:
By the way, Wolff Olins has two "f" and one "l"... :) A little slip of the tongue?
As many already wrote, it's your blog and you can do what you want. Personally, I like the "thumbs up/down" poll option.
On Mar.09.2009 at 06:34 PM
Mark’s comment is:
Well done, and I agree.
Think before you post!
If I have EVER EVER made an offensive, rude or insensitive comment then I truly TRULY apologize for this. That WILL NOT happen again. I usually have a reason for why I don't like something and I express it as much as possible.
On Mar.09.2009 at 06:53 PM
Jean C.’s comment is:
Good idea! Sometimes, quality is better than quantity. When there's too much quantity, you don't always want to search the little quantity in the lot.
On Mar.09.2009 at 06:54 PM
Dv8’s comment is:
Wow... Not sure how I feel about this.
I can understand cruel or over the top comments being an issue, in that case you should just moderate them and indicate "post removed"
On the other hand, this is the real world and not all things are going to be liked by all people, if a logo is bad, and I honestly feel that way, isn't my opinion just as valid as the person that loves it... do I really need to write a thesis to support how I feel.
In my opinion the people that are creating the art shown on this site deserve to be under the social spotlight, they are creating ID's and branding for major corporations and getting paid well for it.
On Mar.09.2009 at 06:55 PM
matt’s comment is:
have you considered using email-confirmation to weed things out a bit?
also, straight-up deleting content is kind of a bad precedent - but 'hiding' unhelpful comments and non-constructive or unprofessional criticism would be a perfectly acceptable move - viewers would have to click a 'comment removed by author - click here to view it' link in order to see them. That way, no one could accuse you of anything - because everyone else can read for themselves what you took out, and infer your reasoning for doing so.
Anyway, with great popularity comes great drama, and I only sort of half-envy you for that. However, the attention this blog gets is definitely deserved, and whatever you have to do to maintain the quality will be worth it. Making omelets and breaking eggs, et cetera.
On Mar.09.2009 at 06:58 PM
Amanda’s comment is:
Thank you for posting this Armin. I have to say I think it was a little overdue. I, for one, am really tired of reading these comments, from certain consistently posting anonymous users.
As someone else had mentioned, I too, favor the idea of a quick thumbs up/down poll, although I'm sure that may some how be abused by childish readers. However, I prefer to see that over vindictive comments about individuals or firms in design. I'm sure they've heard it all before, but that doesn't make it deserved and is clearly not the best or most appropriate means of passing on one's disapproval.
Of course, not everyone is going to love everything we see on this blog at all times. This is the same as working in any other industry really. Every song on an album is not a hit single, there's always someone who hates the restaurant everyone else loves... it's not always going to be your cup of tea. That doesn't mean the work doesn't deserve fair constructive, criticism in a place where we should all be taking away is thoughtful, intelligent thoughts to reflect on when thinking about our own work.
That being said, I think the point is that if you are reading, commenting fairly and in a pertinent manner, want to be a valued contributor to this forum, and have an active role in this small piece of the design community, there's no reason at all to sit in the shadows.
On Mar.09.2009 at 07:19 PM
Jerry Kuyper’s comment is:
Your move is timely and welcome, I decided last week to simply avoid the comments button.
Think twice, post once.
On Mar.09.2009 at 07:22 PM
Glenn Sakamoto’s comment is:
Well said. I look forward to a "brand new" comments section.
On Mar.09.2009 at 07:52 PM
Kareem’s comment is:
Sounds fair to me.
On Mar.09.2009 at 08:28 PM
t-bone’s comment is:
how about a simple clickable voting ballot of either 'yay' or 'nay' as a substitute for inane drivel?
On Mar.09.2009 at 08:39 PM
Justin Hill’s comment is:
I agree with the idea that we should think before we comment.
On Mar.09.2009 at 08:42 PM
Armin’s comment is:
> you didn't come out and say no one asked you to do this nor that no one provided any compensation for you to do so.
Sigh.
No one asked me to do this anyone provided any compensation for me to do so.
Sigh.
On Mar.09.2009 at 09:09 PM
Natalie’s comment is:
I always enjoyed reading Brand New's comments to get an insight into what other professionals thought about various redesigns, but the dwindling quality had me down a little bit.
I support moderated comments. This post doesn't suck!
On Mar.09.2009 at 09:23 PM
Mat Claypotch’s comment is:
Kudos- This site is one of my favorite design blogs to follow, and I love the tone and presentation of your posts, but I've always ignored the comment threads. Hopefully this will make them worth reading :) Keep fighting the good fight, man.
On Mar.09.2009 at 09:24 PM
DG3’s comment is:
Just quit posting work that sucks. Seems easy enough.
=]
On Mar.09.2009 at 09:30 PM
Ed Macovaz’s comment is:
Nice one. Hope it doesn't become too much work cleaning out all the buffoonery.
On Mar.09.2009 at 09:34 PM
michele’s comment is:
I vote for user profiles combined with a rating system.
As much as I hate the useless negative commentary, if the system were to be implemented as described (you only mentioned filtering unhelpful negative comments, not unhelpful positive ones) I'd find myself wondering how many negative reactions had been censored out on each post.
On Mar.09.2009 at 09:45 PM
Trevor Woods’s comment is:
I don't understand why this is such an issue. This website is commentary about quality, why shouldn't Armin, who does the work around here, be allowed to promote quality?
It was never said that comments with negative reviews would be deleted. Just pointless ones.
On Mar.09.2009 at 09:52 PM
Tom Hackett’s comment is:
N.S.’s comment is:
Those who say censorship never works are way off base. Censorship works on a daily basis. I use self-censorship every day to keep from making a fool of myself.
If you use self-censorship then you don't need a 'policy' for it, but since most of you have no self-control when you comment on the internet you DO need a 'policy' for it. You brought this on yourselves, and the rest of us who comment politely will definitely appreciate it.
------------
Those of you who say that this will cause an improper 'measurement' of how the design community is accepting things....WHO CARES?! Get an opinion of your own. Don't concern yourself, even in the slightest, with what the over-arching sentiment is. Take Jerry Kuyper for example. He posts here all the time, and he is a very well respected designer. I come to read his opinion because I have come to respect it over time. Not to add up how many of you like or dislike something. Take John Mandiola for example there: I rarely agree with him even though I do respect that he takes time to come to his opinions.
On Mar.09.2009 at 10:43 PM
Pathenogenesid’s comment is:
Censorship! Flat out!
You may have accidentally created this circus by dedicating time and space to Blimpie, the Pepsi document and other poorly developed identities lately, what the heck were you expecting, a positive support group for poor design.
I have been reading this blog for many months and commend you for your efforts but if you want quality, post quality. As far as I can tell the good work average 40-60 supportive comments while the poor work averages 100+ dumb remarks... Really, what were you expecting?
On Mar.09.2009 at 10:44 PM
Panasit’s comment is:
I was recently banned from a political liberal leaning blog. I was not being a troll at all, but we were talking about dirty syringes and one of the commenter said something like "I can't believe this is happening in the US. oh, now I'd feel much safer in Thailand and India" implying sarcastically that my country (Thailand) used to not be safe. So I responded, "hey, don't knock my country (exact words)".
That commenter is a friend with the blog moderator, and when she went nuts, he went nuts. They were very angry at me. I pushed the thing further, being the kind of guy that really don't like rudeness, so I got banned.
My feeling? It's his sandbox, he can do whatever he wants. And may be he was right, I should have been a lot nicer. Although do I really have to be nice? And was I even mean to that girl? I was warning her. Don't knock my country is not equal to your mother is a prostitute.
Anyway my point is,
I think people know what is appropriate and what is not. Troll, someone who just want to pick a fight, know what they are doing, or what kind of posters they are being. I don't think there are that many situation where the poster meant well, but the result comes off as troll-ish.
I think it is more necessary to educate people how to DEAL with troll rather than how to not BE ONE. When troll posted stupid comments, they wanted a reaction. Once they are ignored, they tend to go away.
From what I have read, I will disagree and saying that there are not that many negative comments around. Some are pretty shallow without back up to their cricitism, but it is still a feeling nonetheless.
In Design, sometime there don't have to be a reason as an audience to like or not like something. I mean as designer, yes something always have to have a purpose. But for a viewer, like how a client would react to our designs (much to our annoyance), a simple "I don't get it" or "it's ugly" is enough to be a valid point.
If other commenter "get it" and want to try to persuade the person who doesn't, then I think that's where a healthy discussion begin.
On Mar.09.2009 at 11:21 PM
PP’s comment is:
I think everybody should ready this: Why I Don’t Allow Comments, and More on Everything Buckets.
It makes all the sense.
fonzie’s comment is:
Thank you Armin! The signal to noise ratio has been growing at an exponential rate. Grateful that a line has been drawn in the sand.
On Mar.10.2009 at 12:42 AM
Loren’s comment is:
I think one possible solution to the pure negative comments being deleted and skewing the results, would be to have some sort of way of showing that it was a "thumbs down" comment and censoring it. Maybe a rating tool with each comment on applicable posts, that would still be viewable after a comment is deleted?
On Mar.10.2009 at 01:29 AM
keith’s comment is:
This logo redesign is terrible. The reversing of the spacing and the inversion of the colours was poorly calculated. While the font selection is nice, the aliasing is off and the spacing is incoherent. The colour scheme is just taken from the Republican/Democrat logos. Overall, this redesign is probably not constructive one bit -- stagnant, to say the least. Likely an in house job.
On Mar.10.2009 at 01:47 AM
Morgan Smail’s comment is:
Thanks Armin!
I really think doing so will restore the value a blog like this deserves.
On Mar.10.2009 at 01:47 AM
Al aka El Negro Magnifico’s comment is:
Way to go, Armin. I fully support your effort to weed out the less than constructive comments.
@ Denny: Hi, dude!
Jason’s comment is:
Could this re-design possibly be blander? The designer just switched the word "comment" with "think" and tweaked the color scheme a bit. I doubt the client feels he got his money's worth.
I give this new brand a thumbs down.
On Mar.10.2009 at 02:22 AM
Bill Dawson (XK9)’s comment is:
Armin, well done and well said.
Thoughtful commentary and vigorous debate are healthy. It's what I enjoy about Brand New at its best. Each armchair critic should make an exercise in self-discovery to reveal why they find a given solution distasteful or unsuccessful. If complete sentences and reasoned opinions are not possible it's probably best to refrain from making an offering.
Perhaps an rating system might be enacted where readers can vote and add their support to a given comment. Positive votes only, and those votes place well regarder comments higher in the queue.
Lincoln said "It is better to remain silent and thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."
On Mar.10.2009 at 02:43 AM
Bill Dawson (XK9)’s comment is:
A silly thought...
Perhaps Armin might require that comments conform to a style as a prerequisite for acceptance. For instance, all comments to the next re-design must be phrased as haikus, or limerick, or in exactly 5 words, etc.
A haiku on topic.
Please refine your mind.
Gently pause and think on it.
Let silent wisdom guide you.
Just a thought.
On Mar.10.2009 at 03:10 AM
caren litherland’s comment is:
"The word is 'especially' not 'specially'"
Though the two words aren't entirely synonymous, I think that either would be considered correct in this context.
Wow. I've assiduously tried to wade through all of the comments. There's a lot of repetition. But there's repetition of only one suggestion: the introduction of some sort of polling or rating system. Over and over, I read: "Hey, how about introducing some sort of thumbs-up/thumbs-down system?" as if the poster were the first one to suggest it. Which leads me to think some people just want to read the main post and quickly interact somehow, without reading the ensuing dialogue.
For me, though, the dialogic back and forth of the comments is an important part of this blog. I don't come here as often as I would like; I don't necessarily read all of the comments, and I definitely skip over the empty "I like this" or "this sucks" comments, but I would strongly argue against implementing a rating system. Rating systems are, I think, reductive of the work in question; they are not really reliable indicators of a design's quality; last but not least, they can be easily manipulated. Haven't we all gotten emails or Facebook notifications saying something like "Please go to x site and vote for my design"? A high rating may be more indicative of how many friends someone has than how good the work is.
Another thing to consider: bias and the effect of social influence.
If you can't be bothered to give a little weight to an opinion or back up a critique, it's probably best just not to interact at all. No one's talking about writing a treatise (even though this comment seems to be turning into one, sorry). But if you just lash out and say that another designer's work is "barbaric" or "an amateur effort" without at least a sentence that fleshes out what you mean, then you probably haven't though it through sufficiently. And yet you think that you're entitled to give something a reductive thumbs-up or thumbs-down, which could affect how the work is viewed by others? That strikes me as irresponsible.
So what to do? I'm a fan of free expression, but Armin's response seems like the most sensible course of action. If someone litters on your lawn, what do you do? Do you leave it there, or do you throw it away? Most likely you throw it away, because it adds nothing and possibly, in some minute way, could actually detract from you and what you're trying to do.
Someone above made a suggestion I thought was interesting: comments deemed by the site's owners (Armin, Bryony) to be hateful or offensive can be removed from the flow but can still be accessible, so that people who have the time or interest can click through to see what was suppressed. That may be more trouble than it's worth, though.
It needs to be the decision of those who put the time and money and effort into running this. It's no mean feat, this.
On Mar.10.2009 at 03:45 AM
LL’s comment is:
You may save yourself some time (and karma) by allowing people to express a vote rather than a comment. It's a simple up/down, which is what the problematic comments were anyway.
People with nuanced opinions will comment, those without will simply vote.
LL’s comment is:
Caren, now you got me all guilty for not reading all 140+ posts before expressing my xerox-like suggestion...
On Mar.10.2009 at 04:09 AM
Alec’s comment is:
Hi Armin,
I like your blog so much, I can understand meaningless comments will waste all our time. Lots of people don't really understand the meaning of sharing ideas. I like this blog because we are not doing polling here, we share valuable comments, doesn't matter thumbs up or down, "back up" our points is responsible and professional.
If you think polling is not necessary, as I believe, a sign up feature could be the best way to solve problems. Like BrandSimple, only qualitative comments will be posted.
On Mar.10.2009 at 04:37 AM
dani’s comment is:
Well done. I think that anyone that really appreciates the content in this blog will be glad to have the same level of quality in the comments that derive from the posts.
On Mar.10.2009 at 05:11 AM
Chuck Spidell’s comment is:
As designers, it's inevitable that we're going to be critical of each other's work. I agree with Armin that it's gotten a bit nasty around here. But it would get pretty damn boring if we all said "great work." We need to find a balance between offering a meaningful critique and spilling harsh criticism. So yeah, why not think before you type?
On Mar.10.2009 at 05:20 AM
john’s comment is:
"Deletion is censorship and is there really a place for censorship on blogs?"
I must whole-heartedly say yes, there is a place for censorship on blogs.
This is not your house. It is Armin's. Armin is sick and tired of dealing with houseguests who are rude, crude, offensive, eat his food and insult his friends. Armin has a complete and total right to call the cops and kick those people out.
Just because someone makes comments available doesn't mean they can't police them.
Good for you, Armin. More power to you.
On Mar.10.2009 at 08:49 AM
Goffredo Puccetti’s comment is:
Well done. I support this decision. I also hope you will introduce some sign-up features to guarantee the quality of the comments here. I think this is the best Brand blog on the planet, let's keep it this way.
Thank you very much.
G.
On Mar.10.2009 at 11:51 AM
Dave S’s comment is:
I think it is a great idea to call for qualified criticism. Indiscriminate negative bashing or unnecessary comment-related grammar discussion is a crutch for those that do not have an insightful opinion to share. As a relatively new reader of this Blog, I have learned to ignore the comments section as there is frequently more fluff than educated opinion.
On Mar.10.2009 at 02:35 PM
chris’s comment is:
Armin,
I applaud you. We have this strange un-argued notion that a blog is somehow public property, and anyone and everyone, as well as any kind of vitriolic speech is permissible, even "good". The boundaries we normally maintain in the face of others are erased by some, and simple propriety is destroyed. It cannot be good for us. I know it is not good for me when I have fallen into that awful snare of snootiness.
So, please, this is your thing. Thanks for reminding us. And, great work by the way. A wonderful site.
Sincerely,
Chris
Luke’s comment is:
Tom and Jack have both mentioned Slashdot's auto-regulatory comment system, which I was also going to recommend. While that system is a big jump from what you have now, for a blog of growing notoriety and popularity it might be worth looking into.
On Mar.10.2009 at 03:04 PM
Darrin Crescenzi’s comment is:
It's been interesting watching the comment count on each entry steadily grow, while observing a relational decline in the significance and insight of readers' contributions. While I have remained a daily reader of Brand New, I have to admit that I definitely jumped on the VonG/Sockwell/Kuyper bandwagon and drastically reduced my contributions to the conversation when things started to sour.
You've been presented with a difficult task, Armin — regaining the quality of the discussion here will not be easy and comment-editing will prove time-intensive and fraught with consequence.
There's a lot of interesting suggestions in this thread for streamlining and improving the Brand New experience — I, for one, think the "Hot or Not" idea has merit. An instant read on the collective design community's attitude towards a rebrand could be an interesting addition, although it could potentially steer the collective conscious in the commenting.
Good luck, and thanks for all you do.
On Mar.10.2009 at 04:10 PM
Quality Vintage’s comment is:
Glad to hear it. I stopped reading the posts altogether about a year ago and just looking to see what was new. Thanks for the hard work Armin
On Mar.10.2009 at 06:19 PM
emel’s comment is:
I say turn the comments on or off instead of soap-box grand standing about supervising the manners and morals of your reading/commenting audience. Moderated comments are elitist/fascist in my opinion on a public blog. You may own the virtual property, but you open your doors to public viewing - in fact that is the intention, right? to amass an audience? I do understand this is your blog and you can do with it what you will.
The great thing about blogs is the person-to-person interaction via comments. Who cares of some asshat writes "this sucks" - just skip it and read the next comment. Surely it can't derail the actual content of the post. And in some cases, maybe things *do* suck?
I look forward to see how these comments influence (or not) your next steps.
On Mar.10.2009 at 07:35 PM
Takach’s comment is:
Let's face it, if you were involved in a critique either during school or at your design firm, and you said "This sucks!" you would probably not be invited to the next discussion, and with good reason. It's simply unprofessional, shallow, and sophomoric. If something is poorly designed, critique it in a well thought, clear statement. But to just dismiss something when you probably only glanced at it isn't a good practice. People however feel that they can be dismissive on this, and other blogs, simply because they are swimming in the sea of anonymity called the internet. But if readers really do take this blog serious they would treat it the same way as an in person critique, the kind we have all done at some point.
That being said, I will agree with some of the other comments that censorship owned by UnderConsideration may be extreme. Certainly something needs to change, and maybe this will do for now, but looking towards the future a better system could be put in place. Craigslist is user policed through their flagging system. Digg determines which stories are popular through a user voting system (could comments be voted on for popularity and rise to the top instead of being chronological?) Not that those ideas offer any real solutions, but there are probably far more well intentioned users on this blog than those writing "This Sucks!" and they probably care enough to help keep the comments cordial.
On Mar.10.2009 at 07:51 PM
christopher clark’s comment is:
thanks Armin
I now look forward to visiting the Brand New blog again. Where criticism will now hopefully be backed up by constructive comments.
I agree that some official guidelines should be posted.
(aka cheetahboy)
On Mar.10.2009 at 08:30 PM
SR’s comment is:
You know what's cool about this discussion? It's a sort of microcosm of what we do on this site each day - someone makes a change with regard to their brand and we comment on how that brand's constituents might react or are reacting to that change.
In this case, it looks like people aren't too keen on an overall top-down deletion policy, but they wouldn't mind a way to hide those comments if they want. If we were commenting on this change, we'd probably have many posts that would say something to the effect of "They should be mindful of the wishes of their true customers." i.e. Tropicana. The group seems to be talking, Armin - give everyone a voice and let us take care of policing it.
That being said, it's obvious that you (Armin) care a lot about this site as a whole, so if you deem a top-down policy is more appropriate, I can't see how it will impact thoughtful posters all that much (well, speaking for myself, anyway). Negative reactions to these changes may be more of an intrinsic need for a democratic discussion, or at least the potential for one.
On Mar.10.2009 at 09:42 PM
Josh’s comment is:
Though I've read the Constitution and understand my civil rights, I support Armin as well in this, despite some faux cries about freedom of speech. When our Constitution and Bill Of Rights were written, they were so by educated men who knew how to use the English language correctly and when disagreeing with a another could talk about it in a civilized manner.
Instead of telling us its a turd, crap, or any other feces related terminology when you disapprove, take time to critically analyze what it is you do and do not agree with. For the sake of proving your own education is not in vain. And if you're a young design student especially, please right critically and on point if you agree. You'll need this skill no doubt in the future whether a designer or not.
On Mar.10.2009 at 09:53 PM
Anonymous’s comment is:
Josh @ 09:53 PM: This server is his private property. His decisions on how to manage the property don't fall under "acts of Congress."
On Mar.10.2009 at 11:00 PM
Shane’s comment is:
I totally agree, and I am VERY happy you are going to start cracking down. This will not only help everyone have an intelligent conversation, but it will also help young people how to critique and how to verbalize their thoughts.
On Mar.10.2009 at 11:17 PM
Gary H’s comment is:
I used to be an avid reader of Digg, but the more confrontational and negative the comments were becoming, I decided to just stop visiting.
Censorship is not really the issue here. It's your blog. Your work. Your expense. Your time. Your decision. If you block a comment, that's your business and no one else's.
On Mar.10.2009 at 11:50 PM
Rory’s comment is:
This has been mentioned in several of the hundreds of comments above, but perhaps a bit of self-policing by the comment reading and making population is in order though voting how valuable a specific post is.
Engadget implemented an excellent commenting system where users vote on how valuable they feel a post is - one that receives too many negative clicks gets grayed out and demoted to the point that their thoughts are still seen, but only barely. Highly rated posts are made more obvious. So far it appears to be working well.
On Mar.11.2009 at 01:15 AM
Clive Mayfield’s comment is:
Finally, an excuse to try and get a comment removed. I've been looking for a worthy opponent.
To be quite honest, Brand New looks like student work. The writing feel like student work. Really. It's contrived. Landor and Paula Sher are having a three-way affair with Peter Arnell. FAIL. Über fail. Lolcats.
But really, you take yourself too seriously, Armen. Why even make a post about your new comment policies? Just silently instate them and move on.
Armin’s comment is:
Nice try Clive.
On Mar.11.2009 at 05:44 AM
emily’s comment is:
Reminds me of class critiques - if you can't explain why you like/dislike/abhor something in a reasonable and logical manner then put up, shut up and let someone who does have a go.
On an overall note, manners apply online as much as they do in real life.
On Mar.11.2009 at 02:08 PM
Mattus’s comment is:
I think this drawing summs it all up:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/23233224@N08/3347788908/
Angie Copolillo’s comment is:
Armin, thank you.
This is something that has plagued the internet all over as of late.
I'll keep this short.
This is not censorship. This is Armin - the owner of a forum - deleting unproductive comments. I think it's sad that some of the commenters here don't trust Armin to make the decisions. I mean, come ON! It's Armin. He's not going to just delete things at random. He works to foster good discussion on branding and all things in the design realm.
I understand preparing for the worst-case scenarios, but I honestly think we have nothing to worry about here.
On Mar.12.2009 at 01:29 AM
Angie Copolillo’s comment is:
Er, apologies for posting again after Armin's clarification post.
On Mar.12.2009 at 01:30 AM
tinabeans’s comment is:
i just wanted to point out that the phrase used here to represent the process leading to bad commenting ("i comment, therefore i think") doesn't necessarily mean what it was meant to mean. (there are too many "means" in that sentence...) personally i've gotten into the habit of commenting more, even if i have nothing interesting to say at the outset of typing into the little commentbox. however as i type, thoughts emerge. i do this as a way to force myself into thinking hard about a piece and responding in an intelligent, intelligible way. fear of sounding like an idiot keeps me on my toes. this way i avoid being a web-skimmer, spending all day surfing but learning nothing. =) so long live commenting, therefore thinking!
On Mar.12.2009 at 01:04 PM
ita-darling\’s comment is:
I really dislike blogs with a lot of oohing and ahhing all the time- give me healthy debate any day! i also dislike the super negative "this sucks" vehicle. But what REALLY gets my goat is when i type out thoughtful and constructive criticisms of blog content and they get taken down for whatever reason (the blog owner doesn't like dissension in their ranks?) I dont know. Personal attacks are well, personal and untoward. Censorship is a slippery slope. One man's
"not applicable" is another man's marketing research. just sayin...
Paul Ducco’s comment is:
Good move.
Amazing the amount of discussion that's been generated by this post alone.
On Mar.12.2009 at 05:55 PM
Jason Robb’s comment is:
I didn't read 95% of the comments before me.
However, I have a suggestion that may improve the comment quality and allow the one-liner commentators to all get their way.
How about adding a simple "Love it" or "Shove it" rating system?
It seems there is a lot of that here, and I agree with Altoption's comment (at 9:50am) near the top that mentions how killing the negative one-liners and ignoring the "awesome" one-liners isn't fair or balanced.
Great post, and glad you've finally done some house keeping here. This might be my first comment ever. I'm hoping there will be many more.
Better days are ahead. Thanks!
On Mar.12.2009 at 06:43 PM
Jason Robb’s comment is:
After reading the comments above, I'd like to mention that my suggestion has already been suggested.
+1 rating system.
On Mar.12.2009 at 06:45 PM
BJ’s comment is:
Thanks for berating your readers.
On Mar.12.2009 at 09:26 PM
theStooge’s comment is:
I think labelling this move toward a cleaner and more respectable comment content as 'censorship' is a little overactive guys. Don’t forget, like Armin said, that this is a highly reputable and industry respected blog that we all turn to, to check out the latest in rebranding etc. Rude, unthoughtful and catty comments are joke. They are not an acceptable means of communication or “constructive criticism” anywhere, from the playground to the office, so why do those guidelines fall to the wayside here, or any other blog for that matter?
I commend Amin for his effort to curb this growing and petty trend. Lets hope it overflows on to other blogs as well so we can enjoy the content of the blog without "FAIL" or "FIRST! :D" comments stifling the view.
Anonymous’s comment is:
this suck balls!
LMAO! kidding!
ummmmmm, its only haters and ignorants that would bother coming to a blog daily to write rubbish!
Personally i think this blog is boom diggity!
keep doing what u do!
xoxo
On Mar.13.2009 at 10:38 AM
jason ’s comment is:
Disappointing, but not surprising.
I was wondering how long Armin would allow people to criticize Paula Scher, and it looks like "about two months" was the correct answer.
I think it's funny how this blog doesn't seem to have a problem with tearing apart designs that it considers "bad" even when they come from giants in the industry like Arnell, but as soon as you criticize Pentagram you're committing a felony act.
For a design criticism blog to be afraid of criticism, well... It just doesn't sit right.
I can understand regulating language and personal attacks, but not allowing folks to vocalize their dislikes of specific designs or designers seems arbitrary and unfair.
On Mar.13.2009 at 04:28 PM
anonymous’s comment is:
Perfectly stated Jason.
On Mar.13.2009 at 04:59 PM
Matthew Delprado’s comment is:
I think this post could become a rallying point for like minded web masters across the web. I Know I'll be referencing back to this post when I start getting that kind of comment noise.
On Mar.14.2009 at 08:52 PM
yael’s comment is:
super-long wordy comments are also a pain, no?
an interesting approach to comments that I haven't seen anywhere else is digg.com. thumb up or down and nesting comments makes comment reading much easier.
worth considering (although I'll bet there's plenty to code that in.)
On Mar.15.2009 at 06:53 PM
Julia Kostreva’s comment is:
It'd be great there were a pretty simple 5-star rating system right below the blog post or headline images (like youtube and I Believe in Advertising). That way, all the one-line comments could be shown with ratings. Also, having the 
next to each comment (youtube), would spare the need for comments that are just high-fives to other commenters. Also, comments are often conversational, so bumping the good ones up to the top of the line (digg and youtube) might not make sense for this blog, but a rating system would highlight the ones worth reading. If you can consolidate comments by using information graphics, do it!
Anonymous’s comment is:
You know how long it took me to scroll to the bottom of these comments so I could post using my iPhone? Anyway, that's not this blogs fault.
Maybe I didn't read Armins comments correctly but all I think he is saying is make informed comments. Meaning add to the understanding of the bigger context by not merely saying "This sucks!" but giving a coherent reasoning as to why it sucks. We can read your quips but we can't read your minds.
If it looks like student art and you feel that is the best way to express it fine, just make sure to also define how you arrived at this design opinion.
Posting your opinion is fine but it's more useful for everyone if you explain how you arrived at that opinion. Being challenged by others well thought out and informed opinions helps us all have a chance to learn new things, glean a better understanding and add to the over all effectiveness of this blog.
I don't get all the "Free Speech" rhetoric? No one is stopping you from creating your own blog where you can mindless rant on all day long.
These requests I feel are more than reasonable considering I don't pay to enjoy this site.
On Mar.17.2009 at 06:23 AM
Von Glitschka’s comment is:
Ah poop! Scrolled past the name pane etc. The above is mine. Sorry about that. Posting is a pain on an iPhone.
On Mar.17.2009 at 06:26 AM
Susan Hare’s comment is:
Love the "I Think, Therefore I Comment" logo. I hope it and your comment manifesto will catch on.
On Mar.17.2009 at 04:34 PM
JR’s comment is:
Hopefully this will be the start of intelligent commentary and the decline of the trollsmanship a number of users on Brand New are infamous for.
On Mar.17.2009 at 07:53 PM
Donald Rush’s comment is:
I think this is a good move. I have often wondered how so many logo designers with national clients could be so bad at what they do. By the comments you would think they didn't have a clue.I would love to see constructive critiques that contribute to the education of the logo community.I think this move will also add to the credibility of this site.
On Mar.19.2009 at 04:43 PM
Rosscott’s comment is:
This sucks.
No, I'm kidding. I agree that these sorts of bad comments are bound to happen (unfortunately). Trolls are trolls and that's just how things go. Is there an official comment posting policy anywhere?
On Mar.31.2009 at 11:52 AM
H_Yasha’s comment is:
I strongly agree, I want to read intelligent, professional ideas and feedback, not incompetent criticism
On Jul.01.2009 at 04:57 PM
Comments in Brand New, V1.0 have been closed.
