NOTE: This is an archived version of the first incarnation of Brand New. All posts have been closed to comments. Please visit underconsideration.com/brandnew for the latest version. If you would like to see this specific post, simply delete _v1 from the URL.
Not to dwell much longer on the subject, but just to bring some conclusions so that we can move on with our regularly scheduled posts. I have never considered our blogs to be one-way discussions where what we say is the last word, so I want to thank everyone that shared their opinion, and they are all taken into account.
Negative vs. Positive
There was a misunderstanding that I was trying to skew the comments toward being all positive. This is not the intention. I signaled out the “This sucks.” vs. “This rocks.” because those are the most, in my mind, shallow type of comments. I understand that “This rocks.” is as empty. As is clear, I am the first to provide a negative review where one warrants it, so you can rest assured that Brand New is not the place to come solely for praise. So…
Elaborate
It’s not about whether something sucks or rocks, it’s about why you think it does so. Hearing your opinions is helpful for the designer of the project being discussed and for those reading. No one can grow otherwise. However, I had not realized until I read the comments that there is indeed a need to just share gut reactions. Which brings us to…
Quickie Opinions / Rating System
This is not a bad idea, and done right, not just a thumbs up/thumbs down option, it could be a smart addition. This will take some time to implement, but I’ll look into it. In the meantime…
Short opinions
I will ask, again, that you elaborate as much as you can, but while I am able to provide an alternative for the gut reactions, I will be much more relaxed about the two-word reviews. Speaking of which…
Censorship
The misunderstanding that I would censor just bad reviews is also wrong. I can see how it would read that way, but I want to assure you that wasn’t the intention. As most pointed out, censorship will happen on hurtful and asinine comments. The idea of “hiding” the bad comments is interesting, I will look into that, but it looks like more work than it deserves. Where I will be more strict is in…
Anonymity
I am not asking to get anyone’s social security number or to tell us their birthday and, yes, anyone can create a fake e-mail and profile, etc. It’s about accountability and taking responsibility for your words. If you want to post under LogoCrapper, that’s fine, but give us the option to look for LogoCrapper on Twitter, Flickr, Facebook, wherever, so that we can get a sense that we are interacting with a person that actually cares about what words come out of their keyboards. Most of the stupidest and meanest comments come from anonymous posters, which I believe is no small coincidence. And…
Registration / Profiles
Might help, but as user I have always hated sites that require registration, I just end up not commenting at all, so I really don’t want to have that barrier.
Deal?
Let’s move on with the premise that we will all be more considerate in our opinions, whether they are positive or negative. They are all welcome as long as they are thoughtful and respectful.
Jump to Most Recent Comment
Jason’s comment is:
Sounds pretty reasonable to me. Looking forward to witness this develop.
Keep up the good work!
On Mar.10.2009 at 07:19 AM
martin schmitt’s comment is:
sounds good and fair to me, because this helps to keep BRAND NEW in the right altitude. thank you very much for your work and the efforts.
On Mar.10.2009 at 07:25 AM
Ben’s comment is:
I think we all could use a reminder regarding posting manners once in a while.
Let's put this behind us and get back to what keeps me coming back here: decent professional opinions by fellow designers.
Ricky Irvine’s comment is:
I'm really digging this effort. I want to learn from others' perspectives as much as I want to develop the ability to put words together for a constructive criticism or praise. I like it here.
On Mar.10.2009 at 08:11 AM
Lucas Human’s comment is:
Yes, yes I agree to all the formentioned…now let's see some new brands already! I'm anxious!
On Mar.10.2009 at 08:14 AM
Lucas Human’s comment is:
*aforementioned
On Mar.10.2009 at 08:20 AM
Philip’s comment is:
Less talk more rock, please. Lets see some rebrands.
On Mar.10.2009 at 09:06 AM
Sam Marshall’s comment is:
This is brilliant, basically. I think it's very important to be able to ensure that no pointless and needless attacking is going on, and in fact although there was clearly a small misunderstanding yesterday I think there was a possibility that that in itself provoked useful suggestions and ideas from people more than if the post had of been understood perfectly by everyone.
On Mar.10.2009 at 09:12 AM
jarrod’s comment is:
thumbs up on a thumbs up/thumbs down option.
On Mar.10.2009 at 09:30 AM
Rodrok’s comment is:
I think this is a good move, is for the better of everyone, we need to know the "WHY" of peoples opinions. It's ok to not like a logo but why? we gotta go deeper in our feelings and understand our eyes positive or negative reactions. This will help us to create better logos.
On Mar.10.2009 at 09:36 AM
James’s comment is:
Not to stir the waters but I'm pissed at anyone who comes running in crying "Censorship! Censorship!"
They're just angry that their otherwise pithy attitude and uncontrolled emotions will not be protected is what it all boils down to in the end.
If you have an opinion that's respectable, it will be protected. If it isn't: the site isn't worth your time and I assure you that doesn't seem to be the case here.
On Mar.10.2009 at 09:52 AM
craigtmackenzie’s comment is:
implementing facebook connect for identity may be a solution, instead of asking for the users name / email / url, they are linked to their facebook account, which (generally) has people's "real" identities.
This would help for overall accountability at least.
If you follow my link to my blog you can see it in action, it's quite easy to implement also.
Another option, perhaps for the quick / short opinion could be to leverage twitter, you could provide each article with a "code" and let users tweet (including this code) about it, this would be nice as it's limited to 140 characters (and again, identity), then find and re-present these on the blog.
Just a couple of ideas for you there.
Craig
On Mar.10.2009 at 10:06 AM
Steve Rose’s comment is:
I approve of this effort. Regarding gut reactions, I don't think they have any place in design, which should be guided by reason. Every comment should have a reason behind it. Even, "It sucks because...", is okay with me.
On Mar.10.2009 at 10:10 AM
kristin’s comment is:
I like the idea of a poll, rating or thumbs down/thumbs up option for each post. It would be interesting to see which identities come out on top (or bottom) at the end of the year.
On Mar.10.2009 at 10:16 AM
jRod’s comment is:
Concerning the Rating System:
i am not sold on the ratings system on blogs yet. they can be a bit tricky and alienate people like myself, that don't usually go into long diatribes about what they like or dislike about someone's work.
normally, I'll say what I see in a short, thought out way. i generally don't have the time to write long reviews and i don't have the time to read them either. i say all of this because if we start rating comments then it may get to the point where only the longer reviews get rated, putting the rest of our comments in the basement, that is, if you adopt the system that pushes the highest rated comments to the top.
my thoughts and opinions may be short, but they are to the point and have some degree of merit. my point is that some of us really don't like to go into lengthy posts about the subject at hand.
like i just did.
On Mar.10.2009 at 10:27 AM
Chaac’s comment is:
I just have a comment about the star rating system or thumbs up / thumbs down system.
If you're going to implement it be crystal clear about WHAT the user is rating: the article or the work displayed. It is very important this is not confusing for the user since feeedback to the brand / designer / readers will be worthless.
Thanks for making this blog better and for posting on a regular basis. God knows the world needs to learn more about branding. Thank you very much.
On Mar.10.2009 at 10:33 AM
Panasit Ch’s comment is:
I don't like site that only allowed registered users to comment either. I don't even comment in Youtube, because sometime I typed the comment and then click submit, they will say "hey, you haven't signed in yet". I forgot to, but then I lost interest. Internet Movie Database (IMDB.com) is a personal worst. That place I just used to gather information, nothing else.
On Mar.10.2009 at 11:06 AM
Joseph Cotten’s comment is:
Deal. Way to keep the site relevant, informative and helpful. As a designer, I really appreciate you taking the time to maintain a high level of quality on your site.
On Mar.10.2009 at 11:15 AM
LogoCrapper’s comment is:
I enjoyed this post.
On Mar.10.2009 at 11:38 AM
lyndi’s comment is:
sounds like a plan stan!
On Mar.10.2009 at 11:46 AM
Pale Face’s comment is:
I will have to say, I visit this site at least 20 times a day in anticipation of each new post. I will admit that I rarely post a comment because..well, because I am not that into posting comments on websites. With that said, I happy to hear this quick resolution to such an issue. I think it is great that Armin responded today with a clear and open mind and is willing to take this site to an even better place, i.e. the polling/thumbs up or down (i Love this idea). Yes, I go by a handle, always have, always will. I am just a creature of habit when it comes to online communication, but I have always made my contact available, as I think everyone should when they are willing to participate in work reviews because someone will always want to elaborate on a comment you made.
Anyways, I am sorry to ramble. I very happy to see something good for the site come out of all this.
I suck!
On Mar.10.2009 at 11:57 AM
LogoCrapper’s comment is:
Well that's nothing, I refresh this page every 10 seconds.
On Mar.10.2009 at 12:14 PM
Rhonda Michelle’s comment is:
Armin, thank you for addressing a rampant issue in forums. You hit the target when discussing accountability; with the ease of being able to comment the requirement for accountability decreases.
Your guidelines are well thought out and emphasize constructive discussion, which I thought was the point of forums all along. Communication at any level can be tricky yet as communicators we each have a responsibility for the power of our communication. Honing this skill and respecting others is a key concept among any community so thank you for continuing to take responsibility for leading the community that you took initiative on developing.
Look forward to more engaging conversations!
On Mar.10.2009 at 12:26 PM
Lucas Human’s comment is:
LogoCrapper’s comment is:
Well that's nothing, I refresh this page every 10 seconds.
Hah ha!
tom’s comment is:
I do agree with all you said... except Anonymity.
I feel that many valuable comments won't get posted if it is needed to give you the option to look for LogoCrapper on Twitter, Flickr, Facebook, wherever, so that we can get a sense that we are interacting with a person that actually cares about what words come out of their keyboards.
You guys should already know what happens with people with power have this tendency to control too much...
On Mar.10.2009 at 12:55 PM
Diane Faye Zerr’s comment is:
Thumbs up, Thumbs down. This could be a fun feature in the sidebar somewhere. I like it!
On Mar.10.2009 at 12:57 PM
Lauren ’s comment is:
Armin thanks so much for putting that in writing, it's very clear. Can't wait to see the next set of work - it's been what, two days? I need my Brand New fix!
On Mar.10.2009 at 01:32 PM
Amy’s comment is:
lol LogoCrapper is already on Twitter as of this morning...
On Mar.10.2009 at 02:00 PM
Spencer Cross’s comment is:
A little late to the game on this, but just wanted to comment on this:
Registration / ProfilesAs a user, I agree that registration is pain. However, I also write for a very large (50+ cities internationally) blog network, and when we finally bit the bullet and implemented registration due to a lot of the same issues you're experiencing, the quality of our comments improved remarkably. Yes, there was a small drop off in comment quantity at first, but in the long run the volume pretty much returned to normal only with a much higher quality dialogue.
Might help, but as user I have always hated sites that require registration, I just end up not commenting at all, so I really don't want to have that barrier.
I'd be happy to put you in touch with the head honcho if you're interested in comparing notes. He's very open guy who's well known in social media circles and would probably be very happy to share his experiences.
On Mar.10.2009 at 02:02 PM
Spencer Cross’s comment is:
BTW, you really need to fix SpeakUp's blockquote handling! ;)
On Mar.10.2009 at 02:04 PM
e|v|l’s comment is:
Great resolution. This is a first time post even though I am a regular reader.
I can't wait for an update.
On Mar.10.2009 at 03:06 PM
Wad City’s comment is:
I'm a bit late to this, and I don't want to drag the discussion backwards, but I offer a few thoughts.
1. I don't often leave comments, but do enjoy reading them. This whole thing seems overblown, when a simple "simmer down" would suffice. The initial post was hot-tempered and a bit rash, sharing in some ways the same characteristics of the very objects of its author's ire. This is the wrong way to start a considered discussion.
2. Moderating a discussion on an open and public web site comment board should not and cannot be about the kinds of comments you *do* want. Democracy can be ugly, but the openness of the free marketplace of ideas is what leads us to new and unexpected places. I don't particularly care for comments like "this sucks" but it's a fair sentiment, and it has value.
3. That said, it's completely fair to come up with some ground rules. This is your marketplace, after all. But the simpler and less open to interpretation the better. Looking for the difference between "this sucks" and "this sucks because it's bad" and "this sucks because the kerning is bad" is pretty arbitrary. The only necessary rules are "don't be an asshole" and it's cousin "don't make personal attacks." The rest is gravy.
4. The hot-or-not voting system sounds great but I'm not sure it will cut down on those comments. It feels too good to type "sucks."
5. I am ok w/ site registration & would prefer it to having lots of little rules about what's ok and what's not. If you want a bounded discussion, bound it by the people who choose to enter into it, not by the words that are spoken.
6. I totally disagree with the need to connect comments to the people that make them, to be able to judge their views by their Facebook page or employer or whatever. If people want to be anonymous, that should be their right.
Carry on!
On Mar.10.2009 at 04:20 PM
Sriram Venkitachalam’s comment is:
This rocks
On Mar.10.2009 at 05:48 PM
Cait’s comment is:
I think the only thing more disappointing than people crying censorship over this post is being denied my daily design because the one post of the day is about stupid commenters.
On Mar.10.2009 at 05:50 PM
Drew Pickard’s comment is:
How about allowing people to register, but not requiring it?
On Mar.10.2009 at 05:57 PM
Paul Cooley’s comment is:
All I have to say is this:
1. Brand New is one of the most fantastic blogs on the web.
2. The insightful critiques on here are usually succinct and extremely helpful.
3. The community is unlike anything I have experienced on the internetz.
Now however we can keep this how it is, and improve it...Let's pick that one.
-Paul Cooley
On Mar.10.2009 at 10:30 PM
Matheus’s comment is:
best logo ever
On Mar.10.2009 at 11:24 PM
Anonymous’s comment is:
You have done a pretty good deal Armin.
Now let's go back to the corporate identities & opinions.
You are a great man Armin.
On Mar.10.2009 at 11:51 PM
Frank’s comment is:
I think the option to stay anonymous if you wish so is an important one.Because not everybody likes the idea of enabling their future employer/business partner/client to identify them as a commenter on here.If you want people's honest opinions, you should allow them to decide themselves if to stay anonymous or not.I for one would immediately stop contributing in any way on this site, would i be *forced* to post with my *full* name or a linked facebook account.
Not because i have something to hide but simply because Google has become the stalking tool #1 nowadays and i tend to have become rather cautious with posting my private information on the internets.
Btw, i don't even have a facebook or twitter account. :)
On Mar.11.2009 at 12:24 AM
Kevin’s comment is:
Thank you for doing this. We as designers are a very cynical bunch, but being able to monitor comments like this will help educated and drive us to produce better projects. It also makes this the best place to go for honest feedback on brand work. Sites like brandsoftheworld are no longer a help for designers and art directors because the amount of feedback is usually hostile and bitter.
On Mar.11.2009 at 09:39 AM
Spencer Cross’s comment is:
It's important to remember that there's a difference between "registration" and "anonymity." Registration doesn't (or shouldn't', anyway) necessarily require anyone to reveal their real name or contact info to the public, rather it requires them to accept some accountability by providing a real contact point to admins and, more importantly, a track record. So if you want to anonymously comment "This sucks" over and over again, fine. But you've got to at least do it under the same persona every time so that we all know you're a douchebag.
On Mar.11.2009 at 01:45 PM
Pookie’s comment is:
OK, kinda off subject, but speaking of Twitter...do you folks ACTUALLY use it??? For BUSINESS? I'm really curious. It seems, to me, an unbearable extension of the already abused and annoying FaceBook. We have a client, who has been convinced by a lame online marketing company, that Twitter is the be-all, do-all. I, along with most of my acquaintances in their 40s, don't give a flying @#*@ about that form of communication. Is it a true business tool for many people older than 25? Who has time for that stuff? Who WANTS to waste life with such technological fluff?
On Mar.11.2009 at 05:44 PM
Dori’s comment is:
I think that the old logo should stay and never bring out the new one until everyone is not ready for a change. I think Jack needs to respect that and never change logos it stupid and dumb that why people will complaint about it.
On Mar.11.2009 at 11:18 PM
Dori’s comment is:
I think that the old logo should stay and never bring out the new one until everyone is not ready for a change. I think Jack needs to respect that and never change logos it stupid and dumb that's why people will complaint about it.
On Mar.11.2009 at 11:24 PM
Josh B’s comment is:
So Armin...
If you institute a rating system on Brand New, do you think you can (or would) use the same (or similar) system to allow users to rate the best quips on Quipsologies? Some days I just want to skip to the best stuff.
On Mar.12.2009 at 05:28 PM
BJ’s comment is:
Protip: ignore the bad comments, the ones that are truly bad will be ignored and passed over by your more meaningful readers. Look at the huge tech blogs like Engadget, there's just no point. Quit with the meta posts and just move on to the content -- what we're all here for in the first place.
On Mar.12.2009 at 09:29 PM
Nik Daum’s comment is:
I also agree that a simple ratings system would be great, mainly for a getting a quick idea of everyone's reaction. People who don't want to elaborate can still have a say without cluttering the comments.
On Mar.12.2009 at 11:39 PM
designscene’s comment is:
You have summed up everything really well, it makes sense and is reasonable. Commenters who are still having issues are being a little unreasonable.
On Mar.13.2009 at 04:33 AM
anonymous’s comment is:
Why do we have to take such things so seriously.
We're designers, not doctors. Criticism's a large part of being a designer. If your feelings get hurt that easily, find a new field.
Leave the 'open' comments be. They're the highlight of the threads— since most the work is lacking.
If you want sterile rebrand reviews, visit sites like Identityworks
On Mar.13.2009 at 04:51 PM
Kirk’s comment is:
this may have been posted but how about an edit post feature? maybe you get one chance to edit.
i know we should proofread but sometimes we post in the heat of passion and misspell things.
(since I'm a FF user, it tells me when things are misspelled.)
On Mar.17.2009 at 12:59 PM
Kirk’s comment is:
or you think of something else to add just after you post it.
like this.
On Mar.17.2009 at 01:00 PM
Kirk’s comment is:
i just remembered what i was going to say. or you have a change of heart after you type a really negative post and want to retract it.
or you think of a way to elaborate on a short post seconds after you've posted it.
On Mar.17.2009 at 01:01 PM
Comments in Brand New, V1.0 have been closed.
